The Latest Challenge

This entry is part 16 of 62 in the series 2010

Posted July 30, 2010

My Friends,

Harry over at the Sealed Portion forum has been challenging me on a number of issues so I thought I would post some of the my response here.  Perhaps some may find it of interest.

Finding the Middle Way
Harry,
Joseph Smith knew that his name would be had for good and evil. What he didn’t
tell you is that everybody’s name would be had for good and evil.

JJ
Such a prediction would not apply to everyone. Few, for instance would say it
would apply to Mother Teresa, George Washington or Thomas Jefferson. As it was,
it apples to Joseph Smith perhaps more than any other man who ever lived, making
the prophesy quite impressive.

Harry:
Joseph Smith placed himself above all others, and on a daily basis he did things
to keep himself there in the minds of all those who he could.

JJ
In some ways this is true and in others it is not. He decreed that his brother,
the twelve and others were equal with him in spiritual power. He would sometimes
give up his comforts to assist others. There are many accounts telling how he
placed the welfare of others above is own but your mind seems to have filtered
these out and only remembers the negative.

Harry,
Christopher Nemelka does the same thing,

JJ
You would know better than me on this as I have do not have a lot of knowledge
of how he treats people on a one on one. On the internet his treatment of
others is what it is.

Harry
and to a degree you are also guilty.

JJ
Have I done something to get under your skin lately? You are constantly making
accusatory remarks at me with absolutely nothing to back them up. And how do I
place myself above others on a daily basis in any way that deserves to be
singled out and corrected?

Harry
Of those who Joseph could not control, he wrote blistering reports about, and
those who were in his control saw to it that those reports were circulated. To
this day, those who were dissenters of the faith that Joseph instilled in the
hearts and minds of his followers are still considered enemies to God and his
great Work.

JJ
Some people deserve blistering reports others do not. Some may have been
unjustly attacked; other times Joseph stood up for rebels like Petilah Brown who
the High Council excommunicated for teaching heretical doctrine. Joseph
insisted he be reinstated because a man “ought to be able to think and believe
as he pleases.”

You just can’t look at a few mistakes and write off everything the man did as
evil.

Harry:
Don’t try to tell me that Joseph Smith deserves consideration for teaching
higher principles of truth. He was and is, a far cry from being enlightened.

JJ
So then because you have a chip on your shoulder toward Joseph this means that
the glory of God has nothing to do with intelligence? That we did not live
before birth? That we have the seed God in us? That the elements are the
tabernacle of God? That there is a higher light called the light of
understanding? That children are innocent before God? That there are many worlds
with many Gods? Ta if there is no end there is also no beginning? That there is
no eternal punishment and more than one heaven?

So because you have a chip on your shoulder all these teachings are just null
and void.

We can give Hitler credit for the Autobahn, but by George you can’t give Joseph
Smith credit for anything because you incorrectly think Chris is Hyrum and Hyrum
and Joseph together are the cause of all your troubles.

Now I admit that Chris may have been a thorn in your side, but Chris was not
Hyrum and Joseph and Hyrum have little or nothing to do with your current
problems. You therefore should release them from your illusionary grievances
and let them go.

You hae no reason, outside of Nemelka’s word that he was Hyrum. And why would
you trust his word on this one thing and not others?

Harry
I don’t focus on any parts of Joseph Smith, but on his existence as a whole
person.

JJ
I don’t see any evidence of this but I believe that I do as I see both the good
and the bad. Where he lied or did anything unjust I will stand against them
but if he or anyone else teaches a true principle or performs a great deed I
will stand for it. You seem to only want to stand against everything he said or
did. Even the great healing miracles related by Wilford Woodruff is not a
positive thing to you.

Harry
I’ve seen how he is.

JJ
And how is that? By listening to Chris Nemelka?

Strange Reasoning
Harry thinks that Mother Teresa, Jefferson and George Washington had good and
evil spoken about them in a comparable way that happened to Joseph Smith. Did
you just arrive from he Twilight Zone Harry? There is no comparison. There is
no man that this applies to more than Joseph Smith. Why strain a gnat to
swallow a camel?

Harry:
(Joseph Smith placed himself above all others by declaring that he saw and
talked to God the Father and Jesus Christ in person. He claimed to receive
revelations from God that were anything but.

JJ
So how do you know he did not see a vision or sincerely think he was receiving
revelations? Some of his revelations were pretty impressive. For instance,
when the church elders were arrested and scheduled to be shot the next day
Joseph closed his eyes and after listening to the inner voice he announced they
would be delivered, which happened the next day. I know you are not impressed
with this or anything else, but there are many examples of his prophetic
ability. He wasn’t 100% accurate but a lot better than any psychic you can dig
up and certainly 100 times more accurate than CMN.

Harry
He was the person that the members of the Church, (including his brother Hyrum
and all of the subordinates) has to consult with before anything was approved,
and NOTHING was approved if Joseph said “no”. Where on the chain of command does
that place Joseph Smith Joseph Dewey? The correct Answer to the question is:.
“Above all others” My mind has filtered nothing out, but looks at the whole
picture.

JJ
So every manager of a business who gives orders is also a bad dude in your mind
then? Strange reasoning.

Then Harry recklessly accuses me of placing myself above others merely because I
am a writer and post my thoughts with no claims of authority. Well Harry you
also write and post your thoughts. I guess you think you also are placing your
own self above me and everyone else then, right?

More strange reasoning.

I presented some of the teachings of Joseph that most of us accept and instead
of giving Joseph any credit for presenting the truth he went through them one by
one and said that they have all been taught before.

I don’t know why you did this Harry because that doesn’t mean that they were not
true. No matter how ingenious are anyone’s writings some similar thinking on
some level has been written before.

So according to Harry then not one person on the earth can write or teach
anything of worth because someone has said something roughly like it before.

Harry, you’re being silly here.

Take the King Follett address. Taken as a whole it was a masterful speech and
millions today are amazed at the composition, but if you break each sentence
down someone has said the same thing before. BUT no one put the whole thought
process together the way that he did in a way that influenced the thinking of
millions.

Harry;
(There is no chip on my shoulder.

JJ
Yeah, and pigs fly.

I said:
We can give Hitler credit for the Autobahn, but by George you can’t give Joseph
Smith credit for anything because you incorrectly think Chris is Hyrum and Hyrum
and Joseph together are the cause of all your troubles.

Harry replied:
Your proof that Christopher is not a reincarnated Hyrum Smith is what?

JJ
And your proof that I was not Napoleon is what?

Obviously your approach to truth needs some work here.

Harry:
Apparently you have overlooked your own philosophy that even a bold faced liar
can tell the truth sometimes.

JJ
So then if some liar tells me I was Napoleon then I should believe him with no
evidence? Correction. Your approach to truth needs a lot of work.

Harry
If you weren’t so bent on selling Joseph Smith as a viable product, you might
have noticed a few things about the story that don’t add up, and then try to
figure out “Why not?” That’s all I did, and it worked out nicely.)

JJ
I don’t “sell’ Joseph Smith and do not talk about him that much. When I do it
is not to present him as a prophet but to examine critically something he said
or did.

Harry
You have published a thousand articles (maybe more) perpetuating a bad egg.
Those are in your files, but lucky for you they can be deleted or upgraded with
a bulletin to your readers when you become aware of all your folly (due in part
to Joseph’s follies)

JJ
You keep making nebulous accusations that are completely meaningless. Name one
“bad egg” on my site wherein lies millions of words. And none of my files have
been deleted. I do not even handle them – someone else does. Few of my
teachings on freeread.com have anything to do with Joseph Smith.

I wrote:

You have no reason, outside of Nemelka’s word that he was Hyrum. And why would
you trust his word on this one thing and not others?

Harry
Actually, my trust was not in his word at all, it was my faith in the fact that
surely there is a correct explanation for all of the things that have “come to
pass” All things have to add up, and they do. There are some who read here that
know exactly what I am talking about. I’m not talking just about Christopher of
Joseph or you, but all things that have ever happened since before the world
began. “Chink!”

JJ
And you think I am off base because I think something like “The glory of God is
intelligence” is a profound statement. You think Chris is Hyrum because of all
that happened even before the world was created? Now who’s making the most
sense here, you or me? This certainly makes no sense, especially considering
the hard fact that Chris is not making a dent in the current history of the
world. It should be obvious that he has not been a player on the world stage,
let alone in the counsels of heaven. I know that he told you differently and
you believe him because…?

You might consider this. Chris has never deceived me on even one point for I
saw him as he is clearly in the beginning, but you who acknowledge to have been
duped by him are now preaching to me about how duped I am. Maybe you should
stand back and ask yourself what other things you may be deceived about.

The Difference
Thanks for your reply Harry. We’ve probably taken this line of argument as far
as possible.

One of the problems is that you know you disagree with me but I do not think you
are sure what the disagreement is about in many cases. You just believe that I
am in a similar league with everyone you don’t like. This even causes you to
lump me with others who are not at all like myself.

For instance I give a true account of some supernatural dealings with invisible
forces yet do not give out any teaching about them. You use this as an example
of where I am wrong. How can an actual experience be wrong? An experience is
what it is. The things I related in dealing with the supernatural happened just
as I related, yet you use this as an example of me being a “bad egg.”

.
Any experience that is thrust upon us does not a bad egg make.

Maybe you are a bad egg because you burned some eggs – if your line if thinking
is correct.

You seem to think that Joseph Smith is the center of my learning and teaching
universe. He is not. I hold the Alice A Bailey writings is much greater esteem
and believe they are much more accurate.

You seem to think I accept everything Joseph taught. I do not. I look at then
all on a case by case basis.

You, on the other hand, seem to be solidly back and white and reject everything
out of hand as completely uninspired with the best he has done as being just
copied from someone else.

You must feel the same way about Jesus who borrowed almost everything he said
from teachers of the past. Even the Golden Rule that Chris likes to quote was
taught by Buddha first.

So, it looks like our core disagreement is that I think that Joseph had some
good ideas, some of them inspired and you think he offered nothing of worth,
nothing at all.

I accept that this is the way you think and will move on. It looks like you
will not change your mindset for some time to come but at least you have learned
that it is not wise to trust without verifying. Perhaps that is your lesson to
take with you from this life.

Harry:
I see that the key ingredient and main subject of your Books “The Immortal, 1&2”
is something that you would rather avoid. I see this latest string of posts as
an obvious attempt on your part to divert the attention away from you and direct
it towards me. I think its funny. You want to say that my methods of arriving at
“the truth” needs work, and here you are pretending I didn’t ask you a question.
The obvious answer to my question has everything to do with an important point
in your claim of not claiming any authority. By revealing to the world of
readers that you made the whole thing up, you lose an edge, and by the looks of
it, that is something you are not ready to give up.

And Ruth says you’ve never intentionally misled anyone, and that she has never
seen your ego get the best of you.

JJ
If I answered all your accusations and commented on all your ramblings I would
have time for little else.

Let’s go through this experience wherein Harry says there was no supernatural
force involved at all. And look at it logically.

We presented the Sherlocks with a Book of Mormon. They read a few pages and
prayed about it. Mrs. Sherlock was struck down by an invisible force and was
incapacitated until we arrive.

Harry thinks it was just gas or something that could happen to anyone.

The fact that it happened so suddenly and powerfully indicates otherwise.

We knock on the door and Mr. Sherlock briefly tells us what happened. I realize
the problem and sense the dark presence because I have had similar things happen
to me. Believe me if Harry had something like this happen to him he would
realize it was more than indigestion.

I know, I know, you’ve told spooky evil spirit stories when you were young, but
this is no story for this really happened and does not equate to a kids fear of
ghosts.

We give her a blessing and the very second we command the evil to depart her
body shakes and all the pain, the cold and discomfort leaves and is replaced by
peace. One of the kids saw a gray figure leave the room. She is immediately
healed.

Harry’s explanation: She must have relieved herself of gas or something and the
kid just had a wild imagination.

Me: There is too much accumulating evidence that supernatural forces are
involved.

Next she related that she was shown some sealed plates that had not yet been
translated. She had never been taught anything about sealed plates so this
indicates she received some true information from somewhere.

Then a higher power created a link between me and the Sherlocks so I could
monitor them on a daily basis. There were many times I sensed they were in
trouble and without error I was right each time. By law of averages this could
not be by accident.

The kids started acting almost like they were possessed and after a three day
fast this immediately ceased after our prayer.

This is not solid evidence by itself but taken with everything else it adds
strength.

For years their business had been consistent with 20-30 customers a day. Right
after we started teaching them the amount went down to 1-2 a day. As soon as
they rejected us the amount went up above normal. This was mathematically
impossible to happen just by chance.

Not the cheap antiques but the expensive ones wound up mysteriously broken
during the period we were teaching them. Just some more powerful piece of
evidence that supernatural forces were at play.

Harry thinks this was just me perpetuating a “bad egg.” I would say that even a
hardened atheist would think something supernatural was at play if I was indeed
telling the truth. In fact my atheist companion Elder Huish acknowledged that
something supernatural did appear at play with much less evidence than this and
Elder Eldridge, my companion at the time, was close to being an atheist, but had
a complete change of heart over what he saw happen. Harry probably would have
too if he was there.

Here’s the funny thing. Harry stills accepts Jesus, yet Jesus cast out evil
spirits many times. Was Jesus “perpetuating a bad egg” when he spoke to
“Legion” and cast them into a herd of swine????? Or do you accept some
convoluted explanation that Chris gave on this over the written word?

You are following a path that many deluded souls have tread before you Harry.
You have went from believing every word that Joseph Smith has said to believing
nothing. But why you single out Joseph is a mystery, for you still accept a
number of odd things Chris has taught and his teachings make a lot less sense
than Joseph’s.

As usual the truth is in-between. Some things are true and some are not and one
must check with the Spirit within to discover the only infallible source truth.

Re: Rejected Evidence

From your response Harry, especially on evil spirits it is obviously that you
are still a big believer in many of Chris’ doctrines. He’s probably laughing if
he read your post. Maybe you ought to take a second look at Joseph Smith. His
teachings are about a hundred times more logical; and much more profound.
Profound enough to draw 10 million followers while Chris will be lucky to be
remembered as a footnote a hundred years hence.

Let me get this straight. There are evil entities in the flesh but in your
fantasy belief there is none in the Spirit world? So what happens to evil
people after they die? Did Hitler, for instance become the fairy Godmother?
Did Jeffry Dahmer suddenly sprout swings and want to help little children come
to Jesus?

You’re not making any sense.

And I do not appreciate being called a liar. I do not lie.

JJ

I have already covered this subjected numerous times in the archives and do not
like to repeat myself over and over.

I have clearly said in my various writings numerous times that the immortal
series, as far as the story goes, is a combination of fact and fiction and thus
because they have fiction in them they are published in the fiction category. As
far as the teachings therein, I present the truth to the best of my ability.

To accuse me of lying because I publish a fiction book is like accusing Stephen
King of the same for writing his books. This is just another of your silly and
illogical accusations.

With the Immortal series I have created a mystery. Parts are true and parts are
not. Which is which? That is the mystery and this is an honest way to give
seekers an opportunity to use their discernment to figure out which is which.

The only people who are upset with me for not revealing the full mystery are
people like yourself with an ex to grind who seem to be angry at me and possibly
the whole world.

Writing the series as fiction served two important purposes.

(1) It allowed me to take true supernatural events that I am reluctant to write
about and place them in story form. This allows me to get certain truths out
there for consideration.

(2) It allows me to embellish the story with fiction to make it more interesting
to a segment of society that just doesn’t want to read dry metaphysical
teachings.

Obviously you do not like a good mystery and just prefer to calll mystery
writers liars.

That is one approach that can lead to living a disgruntled life.

Re: Rejected Evidence

Alex:
Some time ago on the radio I heard the following definition of an honest
man:

“An honest man is not necessarily the one who is honest, but who is
dishonest and quite honest about it”.

JJ
That is not the definition of an honest man, but the definition of a liar who
admits that he lies. A truly honest person does not lie to begin with.
Copyright 2010 by J J Dewey

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