Below is some continuing dialog I had with our fundamentalist Mormon friend
Reader: Saying that all will manage themselves is ignoring the various states of being and preparation of the people that will come to Zion.
JJ: Perhaps you received this idea from my statement that the associates of a laggard will take care of handling him. In the Molecular Relationship problems are taken care of as much as possible from the bottom up rather than from the top down. The leader leads by giving correct principles and those under the leader apply the correct principles by governing themselves.
For instance, suppose we have a group of twelve who have a laggard in their midst. It will first of all be the duty of his associates to keep him in order and if he does not do his share of the work he will be voted out of the group and replaced by one who will do his share.
Reader: No, I do not feel God is going to come down and do our work for us. But he will reveal what needs to be done to those (1) are able to receive and (2) have the stewardship over the people involved. God organizes his work. He appoints leaders.
JJ: This is the flaw in all current systems and a double flaw in religious ones governed by this idea: “God appoints leaders and the people are to accept this without question.” That’s why the LDS church is in such good shape spiritually at present, right? God has appointed all of its leaders and they have not lead the people astray. They have maintained all the gifts of the Spirit – Give me a break.
Has anyone seen God come down from his throne and appoint a leader?
Of course not.
Who really appoints leaders in all cases?
It is done by the hand of some human, with frailties, in the flesh.
In our current system, religious or temporal, only a few leaders have the wisdom to appoint flawlessly through the Holy Spirit. Sooner or later every organization that exhibits the flaw that “god is appointing our leaders” develops wayward leaders who step in and within a generation much will be corrupted and anyone who wants to return to the common sense of the past will be looked upon as a heretic.
This is certainly the case with the LDS church.
Actually, in the early church the leaders were not mindlessly appointed and accepted, but were voted on. Back then it was not a unanimous “sustaining vote” as in the church now, but a real vote. They were real elections there were often quite a large number who voted no. Several times, for instance, even revered apostles like Orson Pratt voted against Joseph Smith.
To say that God will tell you what to do or who the leader is going to be is really saying that some person who claims to know the mind of God is telling you this.
To accept this without question will lead any organization to mediocrity, doom or even unjust war.
The true order allows the Holy Spirit to work through the people from the bottom up through the principle of election. The true elect are elected.
“Elect” is from the Greek EKLEKTOS which is usually translated as “elect” or “chosen”, but its root meaning is “to make a choice”. The elect are those who have power to make their own choices without the inerference of an authoritative figure. They are independent of all but the God within and have “chosen” the path that leads to the Holy Spirit. They are as the wise virgins with the oil in their lamps and can stand alone against all odds and do not have to borrow light from others, but always recognize other lights presented.
Reader: God uses priesthood lines of Authority that He first establishes. That is how God has always managed his chosen people…
JJ: But the true priesthood works “without compulsory means.” There is no stronger compulsory means than for some outward authority to tell an acolyte “God says you must do this or suffer his wrath.”
You’ll notice that between 1838-1844 there were only a handful of revelations from Joseph Smith with “thus saith the Lord” therein. Even though he received some of his greatest principles during this period he also became more of a teacher and less of an authority. He began to realize the truth of this principle.
Reader: But man seems to always know better (than God), he wants his kings, he wants his elected officials, he wants the ways of the world, he knows better than God.
JJ: This is always the excuse religious leaders use to control the minds of men. Jim Jones and David Koresh used this same line to control their people.
What is the true order of revelation in this coming age of enlightenment?
There is only one way. That is to teach without compulsory means and allow the Holy Spirit to verify to the hearts of those who receive. This is what I do and it works for those who apply without preconceived notions.
Thus saith the Lord was applicable to ages past to tell people what to do when people needed to be more rigidly controlled, but humanity has made considerable progress and that which was the good in one age becomes the evil in the next. There are exceptions to all things, but overall it is a disaster for the arm of flesh to command in the name of God.
As proof find me someone who is currently doing it with successful results? After all, there are lots of prophets on the earth barking commandments.
No one you say? That’s because the true prophet has not surfaced you say?
Such a true prophet will never surface. God is doing a new thing and the prophet saw this coming when he said these great words:
“I teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves.”
Reader: But man’s results are different than God’s. He lives in a society that is filthy and evil, while at the same time he is proclaiming peace and love to the world.
JJ: “To the pure all things are pure.” When I look at the world I do not see that which is filthy and evil. I see the good people with good hearts trying to do their best to make things work. “Good drives evil from the form of man in time and space.”
Let us light a candle rather than curse the darkness.
Reader: You state, “One of the major problems we have in the United States at present is that we are governed largely by appointed representatives rather than elected ones.” No, the problem is that they are appointed by those that are not led by the Spirit, they have an agenda that is counter to Gods plans. That those that appoint are not seeking righteous individuals who seek the Lord’s direction in what they do.
JJ: Osama Bin Laden thought he was led by the Spirit and appointed according to God’s will. This is a flawed idea for this age and will lead to disaster from this point on, mark my words.
As evidence try and find me one organization where all leaders are appointed wherein the Spirit flows. Of course the orthodox LDS think appointment works in their organization, but what they do not realize is the power of appointment is what has chased the spirit out even though all those in power think they are following the will of God.
Reader: An official being elected only means they are popular in the eyes of the world, not that they are righteous or even good managers. The government of Zion will be a Theocracy.
JJ: Will it? What makes you so sure? Have you ever seen a Zion society work? Were you there in the says of Enoch? Did he truly bark out orders in the name of God or did he teach correct principles and let the people govern themselves through election?
A dictatorship is a dictatorship whether it be called such, or if it called a theocracy. “A rose is a rose by any other name.”
This drive to create a religious dictatorship by many of the deceived who are pure is heart is one of the great triumphs of darkness upon the earth and must be overcome by shining the light of true principles on the subject.
As evidence of this compare a dictatorship like North Korea to our constitutional government. One uses dictatorship and appointment. The other uses election. Which is the more successful? Which one more successfully suppresses the free will of men? Unfortunately the government of the United States is far from perfect as many decisions are made by appointed people rather than those elected.
“But ours will be a benevolent dictatorship where God speaks,” you say.
This is even worse because subjects are less likely to question or rebel if they think they are going against God. Even when the prophet is obviously wrong they still think he is right. Joseph Fielding Smith (LDS President 1970-72) said we would never go to the moon. A prophet cannot be wrong so this statement is erased from all his writings to make it as if it were never spoken.
Reader: You also state, “Of course there will be a decision making body that will deal with this. It will be his immediate co-workers.” It sounds like you are taking this agenda right out of the pages of communism. It didn’t work either.
JJ: Communism is top down leadership. The Molecular Relationship works from the bottom up through the power of election. I do not recall free election to be a core principle governing Communism.
Workers at the bottom of the totem pole have a right to have a say on who they will work with rather than have it dictated to from on high.
The Reader then chastised me for deviating from the orthodox Mormon doctrine of how Zion is to be established.
JJ: Have you ever noticed that sincere people who spend many years studying the scriptures and then make prophesies from them are always wrong?
Why is this?
It is because “the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life.”
Most of these false prophets are sincere, but they make the mistake of looking for literal perfection in the written word.
This same mistake is made by those who pour over the writings about the kingdom of God and Zion and try to construct how it will be from literal interpretations.
The Kingdom of God will not progress along the lines as conjected by the minds of the LDS students of this age.
One thing that is not taken into consideration is the fact that much of the work through Joseph Smith was an experiment wherein many parts of the experiment failed and are now discarded. The only way to find the will of God as it applies to us today is to seek that will without preconceived notions and be as a little child. God will do a “new” thing in this age, but the principles will be in harmony with the scriptures when all is said and done.
Consider, for example, how few were able to predict the manner that Christ would truly come. They were either expecting a conquering hero or one who comes in the glory of God from heaven. There were only a small handful who were expecting a humble man of the people and perhaps none in the old world expected the hero to be crucified.
Even so, when all was said and done the event was in amazing harmony with the prophesies.
As it was then, even so shall it be today.
Reader: Contrary to what you imply I believe that there will be new revelation, I know that it will be associated with Zion. But just because you claim that your work is inspired does not make it so.
JJ: Neither does it mean it is not correct.
Glad to hear that you believe that there will be revelation outside of the current scriptures. The way you worded your last post it left me wondering.
Reader: We read in the scriptures that even Lucifer will teach many truths in order to deceive someone on a single critical principle.
JJ: I do not believe this is in the scriptures. It is a tradition that may or may not be correct.
Reader: You intermingle scripture and your own personal thoughts.
JJ: So do you.
Reader: The truths that are there, carry the people along to believe your other ideas. You then further assert that “Any truth therein is as good as scripture for ‘the highest religion is truth.’“. That in and of itself is true, but the way you are asserting it means that your writings are and should be considered scripture.
JJ: I make no such claim. I do say that if any writing (including my own) is verified by the Holy Spirit then it is as good as scripture. Truth is truth wherever it is found.
Reader: Your writings are not scripture, they did not originate from God’s thoughts but yours.
JJ: Many are my own thoughts and many are from the Holy Spirit within. One has to read and discern. Unfortunately, you have read only a few of my writings so you are not in a position to judge.
Reader: You then state “The Priesthood ‘holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God.’ D&C 84:19” So how is it that you are now claiming Priesthood authority to build Zion?
JJ: I make no claims. I teach and I do.
Reader: Who laid their hands upon your head? What revelation was received concerning your Priesthood? Did Joseph Smith or someone else appear and give your Priesthood? Or do you say that your Priesthood comes from another Church, one who has lost its way?
JJ: As far as the Priesthood goes I have as much claim to the priesthood as anyone, but I need no priesthood for what I am doing. I speak as Lehi of old who said: “The Holy Ghost giveth authority that I should speak these things.” I Nephi 10:22
Reader: When ‘new revelation’ is claimed, if it not in harmony with that which has already been given, we can be assured that it is not from the same source and the spirit will testify of that.
JJ: Tell me one thing I teach that is not in harmony with the scriptures.
Reader: God does not change.
JJ: His attributes do not change but his methods do as evidenced in the scriptures:
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.
Isa 42:9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.
Isa 43:19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.
Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
I Nephi 20:6 Thou hast seen and heard all this; and will ye not declare them? And that I have showed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them.
The revelation through Jesus was new and different from that of Moses. Notice that Jesus never did say “thus saith the Lord,” even though he received all his words from his Father. He only taught. Joseph evolved into this method.
Reader: To summarize you say “My teachings are not for everyone, but those to whom they are meant will feel a familiar vibration and can receive verification through the Spirit if they seek.” This is a true statement. But there are many spirits, many are not of God. I am certain that they will gladly verify the words that you have written.
JJ: You keep using the same arguments that were used by the enemies of the revelations of Joseph Smith whom you revere. Come up higher my friend and trust that good people in this group such as Susan, Blayne, Larry, John, Diane, Bryan, Dennis and others who may just sense the Holy Spirit with as much or more discernment as yourself.
I doubt if anyone has received verification of all that I have written, but many have received verification of that which is important for them and for that which they are open to receive.
I have taught repeatedly that all should not assume that my writings, or those of any other are true, but to continue to test them with the Spirit.
Most of the members still challenge or question me on the Keys if I teach something that does not ring true to them. This is encouraged.
Reader: In fairness, I asked you many questions, some of which you answered, but many of which you avoided outright, or deferred by saying “read my writings”.
JJ: When answering your question would take days of writing and I already have the answers readily available online then it would be foolish to repeat the work which is already done. I have answered all your questions that are practical. This post is a typical example. I have been going line by line and responding to you. I can’t do much more than that.
I think any reader of our dialog would have to admit that I have been quite forthright. If there is anything I have not answered for you that would not require a lengthy explanation you are welcome to ask. I have gained a reputation on the Keys over the past few years of not avoiding challenging questions.
Reader: Your vision of Zion is just not God’s vision of Zion, hence it will never be Zion.
JJ: Quite judgmental of you.
Tell me who has the true vision? Where are these people prophesied of who “see eye to eye?”
Reader: There may even be fruit, but not pure, good and delightsome. It will be cast out.
JJ: “Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.” Matt 7:1-2
Today I dialed a wrong number… The other person said, “Hello?” and I said, “Hello, could I speak to Joey?”… They said, “Uh… I don’t think so… he’s only 2 months old.” I said, “I’ll wait.” Steven Wright
Oct 20, 2003
Copyright by J J Dewey
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