Month: November 2014

July 28, 2014

Discussions with Another Forum

You (Allan) say that Larry does not use the scriptures for their intended purpose – that he doesn’t live “the necessary Consecrated Life” that he doesn’t seek the kingdom because of his concern with the cares of the world, that he doesn’t seek self knowledge, and does not endeavor to know himself. And you know all these things about Larry because???

Note this from the Gospel of the Nazirenes which you use:

Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged; and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you again; and as you do to others, so shall it be done to you.

2 “And why behold the mote that is in your brother’s eye, but consider not the beam that is in your own eye? Or how will you say to your brother, ‘Let me pull the mote out of your eye; and behold a beam is in your own eye?’ You hypocrite, first cast the beam out of your own eye; and then shall you see clearly to cast the mote out of your brother’s eye.

Instead of judging that about which you know not, how about giving us something usable? You say that you have assisted many in recalling their past lives as have I. We would be interested in hearing your method as well as how you did it yourself the first time.

***

New Direction

We have just about milked this scripture-allegory-deception-history thing for what it is worth. I believe that we understand the points that Allan is making but I do not think he and his group understand the main point I was trying to make. Oh, well, I gave it my best shot.

Meanwhile, Allan makes an interesting claim that he is the reincarnation of the Brother of Jesus and even helped write the scripture. Since he claims to have a memory of that life he could answer some interesting questions. Here are mine.

Are the current gospels accurate in stating that Jesus was physically crucified and resurrected? If not could you tell us what really happened and how Jesus really died?

Did Jesus walk on water, calm the storm, raise Lazarus from the dead and pay his taxes with a coin from the belly of a fish?

What did Jesus physically look like?

I’m sure others will have their question as we move forward.

***

The Scriptures

A reader wants to know how I view the scriptures.

I see the Bible as a composition of a number of endeavors. The farther back in history the Bible compilers had to go the more they had to rely on legends passed down by word of mouth. There was indeed a creation and a first family but there are many legends of what happened and the Bible compilers took the best and what they thought was the most accurate available and created a narrative containing as much truth as they could encapsulate until we ended up with the Old Testament scriptures. The farther back we go the more myth is incorporated, yet some of the greatest truth is revealed through allegory. But even the allegorical stories are a mixture of historical truth and symbolism.

I believe there has been numerous Adams and Eves who have represented new beginnings after cataclysms. The first Adam appeared over 18 millions years ago.

As the scriptures get closer to the present the historical part becomes more accurate.

The New Testament accounts we have were written between 60 – 120 AD, some of them based on earlier records. I do not think they wrote them as allegory, though there is a lot of symbolism in them but did their best to make their accounts accurate as far as the teachings and history go. Of course, we do not have the original manuscripts but current scriptures are translated from about the twentieth copy or so. Thus there is no way of telling how much any of the scriptures have been altered and corrupted, but I think the original writers of New Testament scriptures did their best to relate real happenings. It just so happens that many of those happenings have allegorical and symbolic meaning.

Some, but not all the Bible writers were inspired. Works of particular depth are Genesis, Isaiah, Daniel, the Gospel of John and the Book of Revelation.

The scriptures were written by intelligent, but flawed mortal men and are bound to have some imperfections, thus they, along with all other writings, need to be read by the light of the soul to avoid deception.

I do not believe that the whole of the scriptures are full of hidden meaning placed there on purpose by the writers. The more inspired scriptures do have a lot of hidden meaning, but they weren’t always placed there consciously by the writers so hidden knowledge could be passed down – with maybe a few rare exceptions.

How is it then that so much symbolic and hidden things are found in the scriptures? The answer is this. When any writer touches the Spirit with his consciousness as he writes, the words that are written will contain more than seems to appear on the surface. There will be interesting things to discover through numerology, symbolism and other means.

But the greatest discoveries are made through the contemplation of the words themselves. The student must let the words take hold as planted seeds and see where they take him. Jesus said it well when speaking of inspired words, “the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.” John 6:63

All words of truth are words of life.

How about the idea that the Gospel writers had to write in allegory because it was too dangerous to tell the truth?

This does not make sense because nothing they could have written could have been more dangerous than the portrayal of an entity such as Jesus who was much more powerful than Caesar and even rose from the dead. In fact what was written was so dangerous that thousands of Christians were persecuted and put to death. What hidden meaning was there that could have upset the authorities more than that which already happened? One would have to stretch his imagination to come up with something.

In other words, there was no reason to alter the historical accounts in the gospels in order to pass along hidden meaning, but hidden meaning wound up being there naturally because many of the words and actions recorded touched the Spirit.

July 29, 2014

Knowledge & Relationship

Dan:

True friendship doesn’t require agreement in all things, can withstand differing opinions, cannot be built upon deception and is lasting.

JJ

Your words reminded me of my many interactions with my good friend Wayne, who has now passed. When we had lunch together we often got into very intense disagreements and had some very good discussions, but neither of us let any disagreement interfere with our friendship in the least.

Even so, here I have had strong disagreements with you (Dan), LWK, Susan, Blayne and others, but they remain great friends. This is as it should be.

It is too bad that there are so many who see anyone who disagrees with them as an enemy that should only be attacked. This clouds a person’s vision from seeing the inner Christ and the true concepts that they may be saying.

On that note, even though Wayne and I had disagreements I found myself amazed at what he would come up with at other times. He was capable of manifesting amazing light that I would have missed if I had stereotyped him as one in darkness whose thoughts could not be trusted.

***

A Synthesis

Dan:

BUT, and it’s a big but 🙂 if there IS both an outer and inner meaning(s) to soul-infused writings then there was not necessarily deception involved on the part of initiates when they wrote the scriptures, they just wrote in the outer manner KNOWING that the inner meaning would be preserved for those “with eyes to see”.

JJ

The deception I was talking about was the intentional type. If, for instance, some writer made up the story of Jesus walking on water for teaching effect then that would be an intentional deception. That is a lot different thing than writing what one may consider a true account of Jesus walking on water and manifesting some true symbolism in the process.

***

Re: The Scriptures

Allan maintains that the gospels were not written to be historically accurate but to be allegory containing events that did not happen in historical reality. It is interesting that a quote he gives in this post says otherwise. He quotes Gibbon as saying:

“But the secret and authentic history has been recorded in several copies of the Gospel according to St. Matthew, which these sectaries long preserved in the original Hebrew, as the sole evidence of their faith.”

So, according to Allan’s quote here the original gospel did not contain just made up allegorical history, but “authentic history.”

Now I’m sure he can argue that the real “authentic history” is allegorical and did not really happen, but that would require a stretch of the imagination and believability to interpret this way. When 99.9% of the population says “authentic history” they mean history as it has actually occurred, recorded to the best of humanity’s ability.

Then the more widely circulated edition was translated into the Greek from the Hebrew. The translation was undoubtedly imperfect but there is no evidence that wholesale changes in the history were made. I would bet that the accounts of the crucifixion and resurrection were quite similar as they are in both the Gospel of the Nazirenes and the modern gospels.

Those who had the early texts didn’t just keep them among believers merely because the writings were sacred to them but it was dangerous to give out writings to the masses. A character like Jesus who was elevated above Caesar was dangerous to the Empire. It was so dangerous to be an early Christian that the sign of the cross was developed originally to be a means of one Christian identifying another. It appears the story of the “authentic history” of the gospel was given out to all who were willing to listen whether it was dangerous or not. After all, the apostles went all over the known world teaching the message in the original gospel.

***

Some believe that there is hidden or allegorical meaning in all he scriptures. For those who are so inclined I would like to see then reveal the hidden meaning is a scripture like this:

Numbers26:16 Of Ozni, the family of the Oznites: of Eri, the family of the Erites:

Numbers26:17 Of Arod, the family of the Arodites: of Areli, the family of the Arelites.

Numbers26:18 These are the families of the children of Gad according to those that were numbered of them, forty thousand and five hundred. 26:19 The sons of Judah were Er and Onan: and Er and Onan died in the land of Canaan.

Numbers26:20 And the sons of Judah after their families were; of Shelah, the family of the Shelanites: of Pharez, the family of the Pharzites: of Zerah, the family of the Zarhites.

Numbers26:21 And the sons of Pharez were; of Hezron, the family of the Hezronites: of Hamul, the family of the Hamulites.

Let’s face it. Some scriptures are full of meaning while others are just somewhat boring accounts of what the writer deemed to be true.

 

July 31, 2014

Teachers

A reader gives this partial scripture apparently as evidence that we are not to be called teachers.

“or One is your Teacher, and you are all … brothers?

Let us give the whole quote.

“But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

“And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.” Matt 23:8-12

The first thing to look at is the main point that Jesus was making, which was revealed in verse 12. He was teaching the disciples to avoid titles which would place them in a position of authority which would take their attention away from the inner Christ.

First he told them to not be called Rabbi. A Rabbi was seen as an authority, like a priest, whose words were supposed to be followed above what a seeker may receive from within.

Secondly, he says to call no man “Father.” Now people who take things too literally may go so far as to not call their own fathers this, but is this what he means? If it is then we shouldn’t call our parents Mom and Dad, Father and Mother, etc. By extension Grandma and Grandpa would be forbidden.

Does such a restriction make sense? That is what the true seeker must always ask and the answer he gets should be in harmony with his spirit, mind and emotions after he thinks it through.

No, it doesn’t make sense to refuse to call your Father and Mother by what they are for it doesn’t unjustly exalt then. How could we honor our Father and Mother if we cannot call them by what they are?

What Jesus was against was substituting the authority of the inner Christ for the outer that takes it’s place. The Catholic Church as done this by insisting members call the priest “Father.” He is seen as a father that is a substitute for God and this exalts him, which thing Jesus was against.

Finally he says, “Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.”

Master here comes from the Greek, KATHĒGĒTĒS, and these verses in Matthew are the only place in the New Testament where it is used. Here in the King James it is translated, “Master,” but other versions render it “teacher, instructor, leader, director, and even preceptor.” The first suggested translation from Vine’s as well as Strong’s is “guide.”

KATHĒGĒTĒS is derived from two other words which are KATA and HĒGEOMAI. KATA is a common preposition indicating motion but HĒGEOMAI denotes power or regal authority. That us without doubt the reason Bible translators in the past have rendered KATHĒGĒTĒS as Master, for Master is a much more authoritative word than teacher.

The common word for teacher in the New Testament is DIDASKALOS, which is used 58 times. When we think of the English word teacher, this would be the Greek word we would want as comparable. Nowhere does Jesus tell us to not use this word.

Jesus was called DIDASKALOS a lot of times and he did not correct anyone for doing this.

In addition to this the teachers Jesus confronted in the temple were called DIDASKALOS. (Luke 2:46) Jesus also called Nicodemus a teacher (John 3:10).

Disciples were called teachers or DIDASKALOS in numerous places after Jesus left the scene.

“Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger,” Acts 13:1

“And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles,” I Cor 12:28

“And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers.” Eph 4:11

Paul says, “Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.” II Tim 1:11

Obviously neither Jesus or the disciples saw any problem with using the common word for teacher which was DIDASKALOS.

Even so, common designations like teacher can be misused. I call myself a teacher in a way that applies to anyone who teaches for we all teach one time or another and are students at other times. What could create a violation of the principle that was being stressed by Jesus was if I demanded that I be called “teacher” when being addressed. This was why Rabbi was on Jesus’ list of forbidden words because when meeting one with such a position you are expected to address him as such.

It is not the words that concerned Jesus, but the way they could be used. If a title is applied to you in a way that is forbidden to others then you are falsely exalted and this is an error.

Such designations are the “names of blasphemy” which were applied to the beast of Revelations. (Rev 13:1)

Here are some more comments on this subject from my book, The Unveiling.

We are told that on his heads are the names of blasphemy. The King James says “name” but most modern versions correctly translate this as “names.” What are the blasphemous names on the heads of the Beast?

The emperor of Rome was proudly called Caesar Augustus. “Augustus” implies Caesar was Lord, or God. We all know many Christians were fed to the lions and crucified. Few know that much of it had to do with the refusal to accept this and other names chosen by the Roman emperors.

The current names of the Beast are not negative names like anti-Christ, Satan, devil and so on. The names of the Beast are adored by the world.

Here are some of the names of blasphemy used in the religious and political world:

*   His/Her Royal Highness

*   Holy Father

*   His Holiness

*   His Eminence

*   His Grace

*   Reverend

*   Imperial Majesty

*   Serene Majesty

*   Lordship

*   Most Reverend

*   Most Worshipful

The Pope has been accused of having the name VICARIVS FILII DEI (in the place of the Son of God) written on his hat or some other item. The roman numerals on this name add up to 666, but this seems to be a fabricated accusation made by the enemies of the Catholic church who believe they singly represent the Beast. Little do they realize that the Beast has infiltrated all the organizations of the earth.

The great name of blasphemy was extended through the Caesars who went beyond Augustus to being called Lord and being deified as a God. Once a year each citizen in Rome had to appear before authorities and acknowledge that Caesar was virtually God. Once one did this, he could go worship according to his choice undisturbed. But, if one put Jesus or some other version of God above Caesar, he was seen as a danger to the state and was usually executed.

Thus, the most blasphemous name of the Beast occurs when a flesh-and-blood man, like the rest of us, is called and worshiped as a God. It is true that even Jesus said that men are Gods (John 10:34), but he was speaking of God in all of us with equality, great and small. Caesar was declared God as one who was special and unique among men. Caesar demanded to be worshipped, and it is blasphemy for one man to worship another man or even see another person as having more rights than he himself possesses.

The interesting thing about the emperors of Rome is that it was not the government who it was the people. The early emperors thought it was a silly thing for the people to do, but eventually the people called them gods long enough and with enough repetition that they began to believe it, and also see that the idea would secure more political power.

One does not need to go to the extreme of calling himself a God to his fellow men and women to have a name of blasphemy, but any name that brings the person a reverential respect takes away from the glory that belongs to God alone. Even Jesus was very cautious about not taking away from the respect due God alone. A man once addressed Jesus as “good master.” To this he responded:

“Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God.” Matt 19:16-17

Jesus did not even want to take the chance of looking too “good” to his followers, but in the present time his mindless followers think it is blasphemy to call Jesus anything less than the best and most perfect creator God of the universe.

Here is another example: “But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.” Matthew 23:5-15

Isn’t it interesting how clearly Jesus tried to teach the principle of not using a name or title that exalts one person above another because “all ye are brethren.”

The Catholic Church has certainly disregarded the command of “call no man your father …” Using the title or name of “reverend” violates the same principle and is blasphemous. One man is to be revered no more than another because “we are brethren” as Jesus taught. Many religions use the title of “Holiness” or “Holy” in reference to their leaders. Many New Agers use the title Master when talking about a teacher, but there is one Master over us and that is the Christ within all of us. If a teacher does not speak to that center within us then we should ignore him.

Royalty uses all kinds of blasphemous names for God such as “Your Highness,” “Your Majesty,” “Your Excellency,” and so on. Even the idea of one being a king or the divine right of kings is blasphemous. One person has no more divine right to be a king than does another. There are many titles that are not blasphemous because they do not indicate that a man is taking the place of God. A title is correct if it merely indicates the job he is attempting to do in this life such as president, mayor, judge, senator, doctor, teacher etc. “Master” may be legitimate as an acknowledgement of one’s mastery over an activity, but not in relation to being a master (or in the place of God) over an individual. There is nothing untruthful or disrespectful about these names.

You will find, however, that wherever unjust authority rears its ugly head, the person exercising it will revel in the chance to be called by some title that belongs to God alone.

There are religious and political organizations where blasphemous names are not allowed, but the leader is still revered as one who is infallible or able to commune with God in a way that the average person cannot. This type of fixation corresponds to a name of blasphemy and it will be just a matter of time before the illusionary names surface to fit the thoughtform.

Truly great leaders are examples of what we are to become, not examples of holiness that we cannot attain. When is the last time you heard a person with a God-like title speak in such a way that it spoke to your inner Christ and caused your heart to burn? Probably never. It is different when a true teacher, who wears not the names of blasphemy, speaks or writes. Then the soul of the seeker will be stirred.

***

Comment to Allan who claims Jesus doesn’t want us to be called teachers:

Allan is teaching you but he is not a teacher.

You are learning from him but you are not students.

Throughout the world we have millions of teachers teaching students but they are not teachers.

We have billions of students, but they are not students…

Are you sure I am not on the Twilight Zone forum here? The illusion here is of Biblical proportions.

To call yourself a teacher when you teach is a description not a title. It is like calling one a human when he is human.

You need to spend more time on writing some enlightened teachings you think to have gotten from your higher self rather than creating minutia that has no significance one way or another.

There is nothing in the New Testament that tells us not to use the word teacher as a description. That must e hidden in the original Gospel of Matthew that no one can see but Allan.

A reader accuses me of calling myself a master. To this I respond:

Completely untrue. It is amazing how many falsehoods are thrown out here with no quotation marks.

As far as being a teacher goes which of you are not teachers to your children? A Parent is a similar term. Which of you with children are not parents. Some of you are looking for evil where there is not a hint of any.

 

Aug 1, 2014

Past Lives & More

Rather than spending all my time answering questions on nuances of meaning and defending myself it may be more productive at this point to switch to looking at doctrines that Allan has presented here and commenting on the bigger picture rather than fragments. His teaching the shadow and higher selves seems to be of concern to the group. It goes something like this:

(1) We have a Higher Self which is a being of light and much more enlightened than ourselves.

Though I have read quite a bit, I haven’t read everything Allan has written, but haven’t found any more information about this being, like: How did it originate? Where does it dwell? Did it have a beginning and will it have an end? Does it have a Higher Self also? What is its purpose?

So, about all he says about the Higher Self is that there is one and it is a fantastic being.

Comment: We both agree with the basic teaching that we have a Higher Self.

(2) We as individuals are not much more than shadows created by the Higher Self and have nothing in common with it and are only given one life to have a chance at salvation. After death, all but a few are consigned to some dwelling place where they have no access to the Higher Self, or apparently the kingdom of God. He doesn’t say much about this place, except it isn’t nearly as glorious place to dwell as where the Higher Self lives. Because these lower selves are just shadows one must assume they live in some type of shadow land after death. One guesses that maybe this is a hell of some kind.

On the other hand, there are a handful of shadow people who, during their life on earth, follow in Allan’s footsteps in some mysterious way only known to certain special people, and merge with their Higher Selves thus becoming saved and enter the Kingdom of God after death. There they can dwell with their Higher Self in a glorious mansion world. The secrets of this are too sacred to put into words so we must discover them for ourselves, apparently by osmosis, without much help from anyone. All that the unwashed are told is that there is a way called TheWay and we are supposed to find it.

Allan says he knows this is true because he has communicated with his Higher Self and even communicated with his past lives, including the failed ones. He does talk about progressing through the 12 spheres of the Tree of Life but I don’t see much instruction on what these spheres are or how to move through them.

Comment: Allan has part of the truth here but is mislead on a couple of items.

Each life you live is created by your soul essence in connection with your Higher Self. You will determine what you want to accomplish and then create mental, emotional and physical bodies that are suitable for your needs. Each life these bodies will be somewhat different and the entity’s identification with them will cause a different personality expression.

Some time before birth your Higher Self will determine how much of its essence and consciousness to endow in the new life. The more demanding the life mission is expected to be the more essence is made available. This means that a part of itself is born into incarnated earth life and a part, the greater part, remains in the spiritual world. So it is interesting that as we live our lives here we are really living in two places at once but the lower part of ourselves is generally unaware of this.

At death the entity goes through a process of shedding the personality self and then merging again with the Soul essence. You, as an individual existence ever remains but the bodies which created your personality are left behind to make way for a new creation in a new incarnation. On returning to your soul you realize the truth that is taught in my books, that you are not your body, nor are you your feelings or your mind, but an eternal intelligence with power to decide.

To understand this better we need look no farther than the dream state as a correspondence. When you go to sleep and dream, only a part of your consciousness enters this state. It is the consciousness connected with your emotional body with some access to the physical through the brain. The mind part of yourself is off in a higher sphere. Just like your Higher Self is in two places at once so now in the dream state is your lower self. The lower part of the lower self is in the emotional body in the dream state, completely unaware of what the mind is doing. The mind is in a higher sphere with full awareness of the two parts. Because the mind is away from the body at sleep the brain has no recollection of its activities when it returns.

When you awake the “you” of the dream state no longer exists, but you the entity which is you certainly does. You feel no loss when you realize that the you of the dream was a projection that is no more. Instead of loss you feel a gain because you have greater consciousness and power of decision in the waking state than the dream state.

Even so, death is like awaking up and discovering that the real you has more parts, greater consciousness and greater power of decision than did your projected personality while on earth. There is no sense of loss, but of gain, especially if the life went as planned.

Why is it then that some teach that all of our past lives are still in existence? Some go so far as to teach that they are not just alive, but still living that past life as a monk, a warrior or whatever. As proof some will claim they have communicated with their past lives. How could this happen if we have really moved on?

Let us go back to the dream again. Le us say you dream you are rich and famous and all kinds of fans are wanting your autograph. When you wake up that rich guy no longer exists, but you, the dreamer certainly does. As time passes does that rich guy return? No. Most likely you will never see him or dream of him again.

BUT, can that which he was be recovered? Yes, at any time. Through hypnosis or a guided meditation he can return to the dream and fully recover the consciousness and experiences of that rich guy.

On a higher turn of the spiral, in the realms of greater consciousness, such a recovery is similar but with differences and more potent. Each one of your past lives still exists as a recording, but much more sophisticated than a tape or digital recording. All that made up you as an entity is recorded like a super computer program which can be accessed by tuning into its frequency.

If you were Jessie James in a past life and tuned into his frequency you could meet Jessie James, even though you may be Jim Jones in this life. But you are not really encountering yourself, but a recoding of yourself. Your consciousness is no longer Jessie James, but what you detect is a simulated consciousness.

Every life past and present has a simulated consciousness that can be accessed with the right frequency. When we see psychics contact the dead, they usually do not contact the real person, but merely tune into the right frequency and pick up some details from their recorded self. The real entity generally ignores most of the psychics.

The real you then lives numerous lifetimes trough its creations. When one life is finished the soul unravels its makeup and moves on to another. As you reach liberation you become one with your Solar Angel and it goes back to its Source leaving you with its reflection which now has access to a still Higher Self, the Monad, or your Father in Heaven.

There are many steps involved in the whole process that would take a book to cover.

***

Allan:

I am not going to reply to your below points, because that would be a negative reply.

JJ

So, I take it that you think your replies so far are of a positive nature then? Interesting and revealing.

Allan

Unlike you, I ceased to read books about 30 years ago.   And everything that I write on, is based upon first-hand knowledge.

JJ

This must one of those allegorical statements you talk about that has no historical truth in reality.

You obviously read books and lots of them – apparently quite a few more than me. You rarely make a post without quoting from some book or author of books. Even in this post, where you say you don’t read books, you quote from books you have read. Strange indeed. You quote from more outward authorities than anyone I have encountered – as if you feel your teachings are not potent enough to stand on their own. So how do you get all these quotes without reading books and outward authors? Does your Higher Self project them on a wall or something?

Allan:

In this life when I was first communicated with my higher soul-self in the Realm of Souls, I was told to get rid of the Alice Baily and other books because of their gravely misleading content — much of which is in fact a cosmic type of allegory.

JJ

So, let me get this straight. You apparently were told not to read any modern books that attempt to present higher knowledge but it was apparently fine to comb through every book available from centuries past by the church fathers or anything relating to them? Or maybe you are just being a disobedient rascal and defying your Higher Self in reading all the books from which you quote. I’m surprised none of your group has called you on this. I know my group would if I made such a contradictory statement.

Allan

The focus was to open the door to my higher soul-self in order to write what had previously been portrayed as the incomprehensible mysteries of God — and set them forth in a way that genuine seekers could receive the necessary edification to begin their own walk in TheWay.

JJ

And where is this information available?

Allan:

With respect to my portrayal of the scriptures, I authored the original Gospel along with the historical man that you call Jesus —

JJ

So, are you saying here that Jesus helped you write about his crucifixion and resurrection when he was still on earth and nothing like that had occurred or would occur? I know you do not like to answer interesting questions, but please answer this one or your credibility on this will go to zero.

Allan

but since the manner in which the scriptures are allegorically written has already been portrayed by some people as a fiction and a fraud, if this is their judgment of the man they call Jesus, then their own judgments will come back upon them.

JJ

And where has this happened? Most of the Keys members think as I do and accept what a writer says as either true or possible as a true event unless we see evidence to the contrary. I accept the New Testament as written except in a few cases where I conclude evidence indicates otherwise. That doesn’t mean that all I accept for consideration is historically true. Some could be true and some not. The truth of the history of the scriptures is not something have placed much attention on as I read them and other works for the principles.

Thus we do not portray the scriptures as a fiction and a fraud. You have been told this many times, but it seems to go over your head. It makes me wonder that if you received things from your Higher Self if they would go over your head also.

Allan

The genuine Yeshua does not want you to study history

JJ

Are you talking about the Jesus who obviously studied all the history in the scriptures and often quoted from that history?

Allan:

much of what I have written exists no where else.

JJ

I have found that some of the names you have given to writings are found nowhere else, but then when you read the details most of them are found in pretty standard new age teachings or break-away religious thought. You must not be aware a to how common some of your teachings are since you do not read modern books.

The only thing I have found in your writings that I have found nowhere else is the idea that the average guy does not reincarnate but the spiritual guy does.

Allan:

But, in order to bring about Stephen’s vision of a Spiritual Community, the people will have to begin to learn the Language of the Soul — and properly interpret what they see — i.e., (5)

JJ

Interpretation. People must accept and interpret the scriptures as Allan presents them.

Allan

Admittedly, what I write can be difficult to comprehend — but since it has been portrayed as incomprehensible by many enlightened men of the past, I can live with the assessment that what I write as being portrayed as difficult.   As I stated, it exists no where else.

JJ

I do not see anyone as saying your writings are difficult to understand. They are pretty easy to understand. The trouble is that you do not go beyond the basics and answer questions that would reveal some real usable knowledge – like how does one contact the Higher Self as you see yourself as having accomplished? How did you go about retrieving your past lives and what did you do to assist others in doing this? I have asked lots of questions you just refuse to answer.

***

Knowledge & Relationship

lwk wrote:

… the idea that the agents of light started off with little or no concern for factual truth should be obviously false to anyone who understand the principles of soul contact and the Holy Spirit.

Dan:

What? You and I have completely different understandings about what JJ has taught on these subjects then and I ALSO must not “understand the principles of soul contact and the Holy Spirit”.

According to his teachings, these “agents of light” are ALL fallible human beings that are subject to that same horror of horrors that we all are: being wrong. Getting it flat-out twisted up and backasswards.

To decide in the extremis of possible, even probable, persecution unto death if discovered (or whatever) to camouflage secret teachings in the guise of historical accounts or teachings does not NECESSARILY mean one has “no concern for factual truth” – for crying out loud!

JJ

Hate to see two good friends having a conflict here.

You are both making good points. Larry doesn’t like the idea Allan presents that the original writers of the scriptures may have written them as fiction and presented allegory as true history. As I have said, wherever conscious deception is applied then a lower amount of light will manifest and negative karma will set in.

Dan is correct in that all past disciples have indeed been fallible people and thus we always need to run all things by our souls. It is possible that those working for the light decided to create a fictional/allegorical historical account and present it as fiction for some reason they thought was justified. Good intent though does not negate the negative karma incurred from deception though.

One reason that this history/allegorical presentation does not carry a lot of weight with me is that I have seen no one come up with any good inspirational knowledge or principles contained in them. Allan and others quote and interpret the parables, which we all know is intentional allegory, but where is the interpretation of allegorical New Testament history? If something is hidden there someone ought to be able to find it. I have seen little if any of this discovery from the New Testament.

If a bunch of truth is being hidden in allegory then where is it and who is seeing and using it or doing anything with it??? It appears that if this was truly what was done then all that effort was a waste of time.

***

Allan:

I don’t know whether you realize it or not, but Alice Bailey portrayed the black race as not evolved and inferior.

JJ

Obviously, you have not read the Bailey writings. In them she asserts that the black race will prove the ideas of the inferioty incorrect by establisjing at some pont in the future a society in Africa that will be as advanced as any on the planet. She also wrote that Christ could very well chose to come again as a black man.

Here are a couple other quotes from Problems of Humanity

Behind the many separative religious cults of that dark land, there emerges a fundamental and pure mysticism, ranging all the way from nature worship and a primitive animism to a deep occult knowledge and an esoteric understanding which may some day make Africa the seat of the purest form of occult teaching and living.

…goodwill must be demonstrated. Right human relations must be firmly established between the emerging Negro empire and the rest of the world; the new ideals and the new world trends must be fostered in the receptive Negro consciousness and in this way “darkest Africa” will become a radiant center of light, ready for self-government and expressing true freedom. Increasingly these Negro races will forsake their emotional reaction to circumstances and events, and meet all that transpires with a mental grasp and an intuitive perception which will put them on a par and perhaps ahead of the many who today condition the environment and the circumstances of the Negro. … The destiny of this great land will clarify itself and Africa will take its place as a great center of cultural light, shining within a civilized land.

***

All races have child souls. Child souls incarnate into the more primitive cultures as a whole and it is a fact, especially almost a century ago, that a lot of the tribal people were black. As any race create situations where greater civilization and opportunity exists then more evolved people will incarnate into it. The black people in America today live in a time a great opportunity and this is drawing many evolved souls to incarnate among American blacks. It is not the race that draws the evolved but the opportunity.

And to suggest that to help any race or people in their progression as being racists is crazy talk and has no logic whatsoever behind it. I suppose you think that those who merely disagree with Obama are racist too.

***

Okay, it is noted Ra that you do not like how Djwhal Khul the Tibetan oriental Master of Wisdom who actually wrote through Alice A Bailey wrote about blacks. None of it offended me and I have two black granddaughters who are fairly advanced souls. One size does not fit all.

On his forum we do not recognize any text on earth as being infallible and run all things by our souls before we accept them.

Aug 2, 2014

Allan:

Bailey was also eventually opposed by some within the Theosophical movement.   They said that she was channeling inferior spirits.

JJ

Not eventually. They opposed her from the beginning. Every group resists new teachings – like your group doesn’t want to consider anything I teach. We would consider what you say if you’d answer our questions – but as it is there is not a lot to consider. We already use the Key of going within.

***

Alan:

She (Alice A. Bailey) wanted to rid the world of Judaism. She actually was of the position that the violence in the Old Testament represented actual historical events. And yes, she was against interracial marriage.

JJ

The real author, the Tibetan Djwhal Khul, who we call DK, did not say he wanted to get rid of Judaism, spoke very little about the Old Testament and merely said that interracial marriage was difficult to make work, which indeed it was in the 1930s. He spoke positively of the interracial unions that were brought about through various soldiers and natives of foreign lands indicating that this would further evolution and inclusion.

You ought to break with your rule of not reading books and read some of the AAB material.

***

Allan

You were asked questions about what we portray as the Law of Octaves, the Tree of Life, the Divine Marriage, as well as a whole host of other such topics. I believe you told one forum members to go and search your writings. They are not satisfied with the depth and understanding of your writings.   I back virtually point that I make — which as questioning minds, they respond positively to.   I have been criticized in this group for information overload.

JJ

This is a completely unfair accusation as usual.

What they wanted would have required me to comb through the millions of words I have written and compare them to their list of subjects, some of which I am not that familiar. To read through all your material on those subjects and then research trough all my material for comparisons would take hundreds of hours and weeks of time. I told them that if they wanted to know the comparisons to just do a search of my site, which search feature you do not have. And because you have so many sites one is limited even with Google search features.

I did read a little on the Law of Octaves and gave samples that seemed to compare and was told it did not, so I researched more and gave more material and again was told there was no comparison (but nothing to back the statement up), so this indicated to me that the only way to satisfy them was to comb through the minutia of everything both of us had written and compare them side by side which in my mind would accomplish nothing, but at least I tried.

On the other hand, questions that need a simple answer concerning my beliefs or do not take a lot of research I have answered to the best of my ability, which thing you have not done.

For instance you could easily answer these questions.

(1) What technique do you use to regress people to their past lives? Is it guided meditation, hypnosis or something else? If it is something else please briefly describe.

(2) Do you believe that Jesus was resurrected in a physical body? If not what is your belief about it?

(3) Do you believe the ancient Jewish laws (diet, Sabbath etc) should be obeyed literally or should we interpret then as analogy?

(4) Since you believe the gospels is mostly analogy with hidden meaning to teach us why is no one, including yourself, coming up with hidden meaning to illustrate this is true?

I have had no problem with simple questions like this that can be answered off the top of my head. I have answered probably around a hundred of them on your site. On the other hand, you dodge. Why?

***

Re: Past Lives & More

lwk

You don’t have to lean on the crutch of “the Greatest Source” and capitalized mysterious phrases if you are actually in possession of truth. If you are in possession of real truth then speak it, speak it to the soul of the listener. But lay off the mumbo jumbo and mysterious claims. Just teach truth, if you have any of it.

JJ

Great advice, Larry. That is what I attempt to do. There are times I could reinforce my teachings with some claim of spiritual authority, but I do not do so, for it would set me up in the position of the beast. Instead, i just throw it out there for people to take or leave and I find the words that rang true to my soul usually ring true in the souls of others who are seeking.

***

Olivia’s Post

Great Post Olivia. That deserves to go in the archives.

JJ

Thank goodness you wrote that last paragraph because that first one was all over the place!

So you admit that you strive to bring your lower nature under your control or to become “kosher” but this is not necessary for indigenous people because they want to be immersed in their lower nature. You criticize AAB for being racist by stating that they are child like souls but it is OK for you to state that they should be left to express their lower natures with their animal consciousness.

The whole point of existence is to subjugate the lower so that the higher may come through wouldn’t you say?

After all you a black man, “as black as the ace of spades” according to YOUR WHITE TEACHER have decided it is OK to subjugate your lower nature in pursuit of the higher and yet you say making this opportunity available for indigenous cultures is wrong.

In New Zealand we have the Maori who are indigenous here. Yes good old Mother England came over and made settlements. With them came Missionaries. Some tribes embraced them, some did not. Some traded and became wealthy, some did not. We had land wars and much upheaval.

In order to redress some of the past we have given back land and payed many millions in compensation. Some tribes have done so well that they are a business force to be reckoned with internationally. Others have lost money and this has caused tribal infighting.

Despite all this virtually none of the tribes apart from a few radical individuals really desire to loose the benefits of being part of a modern society with all the opportunity this offers, and go back to trying to survive off the land with no modern conveniences. And if they did want to they could, no one would stop them.

So really in your long convoluted back hand way, you do agree with AAB, that there ARE child like indigenous cultures, yet you don’t think they should benefit from the opportunities that modern society can offer them, even though you do. Because you have a different consciousness than they do?

According to you we should leave these people to express their lower animal consciousness and they will be better off.

Ra, if you had been locked in a room with only enough to keep you alive, do you think your inner intellect would have automatically risen you above these limitations and educated you, or have your experiences and opportunities that “you have been blessed with” stimulated your intellect and helped shape who you are today?

Confusing double speak and verbiage seems to characterize the way your group communicates. Now may be a good time to read the link that Dan gave you. Perhaps that will provide some clarity for you and your group.

***

Hallelujah

Hallelujah. Allan finally partially answered a couple questions. Now maybe we can get somewhere. Let us review them

(1) What technique do you use to regress people to their past lives? Is it guided meditation, hypnosis or something else? If it is something else please briefly describe.

Allan:

I use Age Regression.

JJ

This is a method similar to that used in Scientology where you regress to unpleasant memories and reprogram or release them.

Perhaps you just meant that you take them back step by step using hypnosis.

Whatever the case, from reading your writings it sounded like some very mystical process was used and now it seems you use fairly standard hypnosis.

If you want to clarify further about your technique we would be glad to hear more.

(2) Do you believe that Jesus was resurrected in a physical body? If not what is your belief about it?

Allan

I believe that Jesus so transformed and perfected himself, that he literally took his body with him.

JJ

At least you gave us some information. I asked if you believe he was resurrected, not whether he was transformed. Resurrection means he would have had to been put to death first by crucifixion or some other means. I’m sure the group would like some clarification here. Was he resurrected as implied in the scriptures or not? If he was just transformed instead, then when and how did this come about?

(3) Do you believe the ancient Jewish laws (diet, Sabbath etc) should be obeyed literally or should we interpret then as analogy?

Allan:

How can I believe in the Jewish dietary laws when I am a strict vegetarian for the last 40 years?

JJ

You have a talent for seeming to answer a question yet not answering it. The truth is that as a vegetarian you automatically conform to Jewish dietary laws so you haven’t told me if they should be obeyed or not.

Allan:

The Sabbath is a Universal symbol of Completion.   The Jews, being carnal, have never experienced a true Spiritual Sabbath.

JJ

That is in harmony with my teachings except it doesn’t answer the question so let me ask it again:

Do you believe the ancient Jewish laws (diet, Sabbath etc) should be obeyed literally or should we interpret then as analogy?

In other words, are we bound by the dietary laws of what not to eat? We realize you have gone the extra mile here in being a vegetarian.

Should we literally keep Saturday apart as a holy day as is taught in the Ten Commandments?

(4) Since you believe the gospels are mostly analogy with hidden meaning to teach us why is no one, including yourself, coming up with hidden meaning to illustrate this is true?

Allan

By Divine Design, everyone who opens the scriptures is supposed to see a different message — in accord with the Laws they were born under — their Spiritual DNA — and the condition of their mind, or where they are at. Therefore, the scriptures should be a personal learning and self-discovery oracle between themselves and their own higher soul-self, and ultimately them and the Indwelling Logos.

JJ

Sorry this sounds like a dance to me. In your previous writings you say that the inner group had the original gospel written in allegory, but they knew the inner meaning which had to be kept hidden so the mysteries could be passed on.

Now are you telling me that the mysteries are different for each person? That doesn’t make sense. If they are true allegory containing teachings to be passed down then a thousand people interpreting them a thousand different ways would make them meaningless. If there is truly hidden knowledge contained in the original gospel then it can’t be different for everyone.

This is a complete non answer as far as I can see here and think you should clarify

Allan

If you were nice to the people on the other forum, they might begin to share their experiences with you.

JJ

My response to your group is posted on my site and I think if people go through them they will have difficulty in finding examples where I have not been nice.

Allan

I believe that if you ask the members of the other forum, they will say that you have not answered any thing they have asked of you. Moreover, they feel your hostility.

JJ

Again I ask all those who are objective to look at the links I’ve given and ask if I answered the questions or not.

Except for one that would have taken lengthy research I think I have gone out of my way to answer questions. This is something that was Not reciprocated by Allan or members of his group.

And any hostility seen is in your imagination. I speak as the greatest expert in the universe on my own thinking.

***

John C
“This is a method similar to that used in Scientology where you regress to unpleasant memories and reprogram or release them.”

This is not exactly true, and it has nothing to do with hypnotism. As, LRH says “we are trying to wake people up, not put them to sleep.”

JJ
Allan said he used an age regression technique which may or may not use hypnosis. Here is some information on this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_regression_in_therapy

I haven’t been in the program like you but as I understand it to become clear all the negative engrams need to be removed in Scientology as well as Dianetics. Correct me if i am wrong.

I have never said my regression techniques at the gatherings is anything like Dianetics or Scientology.

 

Copyright 2014 by J J Dewey

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Greg Anderson prepared a couple interesting PDF’s illustrating the Grand Tour from the Book Eternal Words. I won’t say he  did a perfect job but he did a great job of presenting the important truths.

 

Part 1

Part 2

July 23, 2014

The Bible – Fact or Fiction?

About time I give out another question or two. The group seems to like this John type of method as we usually get some pretty good responses.

Stephen has drawn some attention to some of Allan’s teachings who claims to be a reincarnation of James, the brother of Jesus. Let us examine a few of his teachings.

One of his core teachings is that the scriptures are not literally true but written as allegories with hidden symbolic messages that will be understood by the enlightened.

This is not a new teaching as many people think the Bible is not history but stories of fiction designed to present teachings of some kind. Some see the scriptures as presenting simple things while others see deep hidden meanings.

If the scriptures are truly fiction this means that whoever wrote them created a lie for, unlike Jesus presenting parables, and me The Immortal series, they have been presented as true history and in most cases the writers would have known that the narrative wasn’t true.

Questions:

(1) Does this make sense to you?

(2) Would a truly enlightened teacher use such deception?

(3) Are there hidden meanings in the scriptures?

(4) Do you know of any useful knowledge anyone has derived from fiction presented as historical fact?

***

Keith:

I find it hard to believe Allen is stating the Bible is completely allegorical with no basis in history. Is this really his contention?

JJ

Sometimes he talks about it as if it is pure allegory, but then other times he acknowledges that there is some history thrown in. He seems to think all the Old Testament is allegory and few if any of the characters are real. He does acknowledge that Jesus, Paul, James and some of the characters of the New Testament are real but most or all of the miracles are allegory, but doesn’t seem to tell us what the meaning of the allegory is. He seems to take most of the Gospel of Thomas pretty literally though.

***

Welcome to the forum Allan. I have been gone most of the day so haven’t been able to respond until now.

Since I hadn’t heard from Stephen for a while so I thought maybe the project was shelved, but I did want to cover this subject of the Bible a being allegory. It wouldn’t have been my first choice in the Stephen’s project, but here we are so we’ll go with it.

The question:

Do you know of any useful knowledge anyone has derived from fiction presented as historical fact?

To this you say that you believe you have presented a case for this. The trouble is that your post mainly deals with parables which are not presented as historical fact. Most Bible students realize that the parables have a surface meaning and then a deeper meaning as you teach. I have said a number of times that many ancient Jewish teachers believed that the scriptures have three levels of meanings, called the body, soul and spirit. Some even give as many as seven meanings to them.

But the point is that parables are not a part of the answer to the question because a parable is a fiction story that obviously presents a teaching of some kind. A parable is not presented as historical fact.

On the other hand, many of the scriptures that are not parables are presented as historical fact such as Jesus walking on water, raising Lazarus from the dead, the Resurrection, the Pentecost and many more things. Are you saying the writers of these things lied and presented fiction as historical fact to teach some type of truth?

And what truth was presented in any of this that was not obvious to begin with? I do not see how you have presented am example.

You say that you and Jesus wrote the original gospels. Did you devise the miracles as fiction to be presented as truth? And for what purpose? To teach deeper meaning you say? What is the deeper meaning that could have not been conveyed in an honest parable?

 

July 24, 2014

Re: [Keysters] The Bible – Fact or Fiction?

It looks my reply disappeared into the ethers. Here it is again.

Again, the question:

Do you know of any useful knowledge anyone has derived from fiction presented as historical fact?

The closest attempt I can see to answer this by Allan is:

“Solomon did not have 700 wives and 300 concubines — yet, these numbers in conjunction with the name Solomon convey important meaning to the seeker/disciple.”

Yes, you say there is some important meaning here but do not say what that important meaning is.

It is important to point out that any myth from the Old Testament presented to us in the scriptures is a much different animal than a fabricated or altered account of known recent history.

Let me explain.

Those who compiled the stories of the Old Testament gathered together stories that had been passed down by word of mouth for many centuries. They did not know if all the stories were literally true, but this was the best information they had. In other words, the compilers did not write fictional accounts and create myth, hut compiled the stories from the best sources they had.

Because various accounts were passed by word of mouth for centuries a certain amount of corruption was incorporated as well as a number of stories that may have been pure fiction.

The compilers did not know what was true and what was fiction so they just put together the best of what they had available.

I cannot fault them for this because they did not write the stories themselves. All civilizations had to do this with their stories passed down by word of mouth and preserving them to the best of the compiler’s ability did not involve intentional deception.

On the other hand, after we learned to write and keep a recorded history the records were kept much closer to real time and the authors knew whether they were writing about events that were true or creating fabrications.

Thus the New Testament is much different from the Old, as when Jesus showed up followers had full ability to record events in writing during or shortly after his ministry. The writers did not have to rely on legends a thousand years old or more.

Scholars say the Gospel of Mark was written within 30 years of the crucifixion. Jesus would have been as fresh in his mind as is President Reagan in ours. It would be pretty difficult for me to convince anyone that Reagan walked on water or changed water into wine, but if I could it would indeed be a deception, even if I thought I was conveying a great truth in the account.

Writing a stated fiction book conveying Reagan as a miracle worker would be one thing and fairly harmless, but creating one that is presented as true is quite another and would be a great deception.

Jesus said that Satan was a liar from the beginning and we certainly do not want to emulate his approach.

If any of the Bible writers created fabricated stories about Jesus and presented them to the world as true then they were in grave error, for a lie always gives the powers of darkness additional power to accomplish their ends. Deceptions causes a cloud to develop over the soul. The greatest key to liberation is truth. This includes not only higher higher metaphysical truth but truth as things really happen in history. Those who distort history, whether it be for good or bad intent, will create harm for future generations and karma for themselves.

So I ask again:

Do you know of any useful knowledge anyone has derived from fiction presented as historical fact?

I would say that most of the stories from the Old Testament would not count here as the compilers did not know for sure what was true and what was fiction. Its creation was not an intentional deception.

The compilers of the early New Testament knew the historical truth and generally knew if what they were writing was historically true. So what myth was knowingly placed in the New Testament teaches us any significant truth and what is that truth?

***

Here is a response I made to a member of Allan’s forum.

Peter M.

You are still looking at this through a very linear male pattern and with a literal bias toward scripture.

JJ

It sounds like you are trying to put me in a box as if I am some type of fundamentalist. I find a lot of symbolism in the Bible and have written volumes on it. I wrote a whole book explaining he symbolic meaning of the Book of Revelation. I have no problem in finding symbolic meaning in the scriptures or any other writing.

And yes, I realize the Gospel of Mark was probably based on an earlier version as most orthodox scholars also believe. Allan quotes from the Gospel of the Nazirenes which some believe to be an earlier version, but this presents the miracles as true history, including the resurrection.

Peter;

The reason you do not understand the story of Solomon is because you are still trying to read it as some kind of historical record handed down by word of mouth without once understanding that there were a whole group of mystics living during that time period who wrote it down for a specific purpose that was not to document history.

JJ

And why do you think I do not understand the story of Solomon when I have not even given you my interpretation? You need to argue with what I say, not with what I do not say.

And what do you think that “specific purpose” was? And what was the real meaning of the 300 wives and 700 concubines?

Peter:

In the higher spiritual realm where our souls reside, the history of human beings is pretty much a joke.

JJ

And you think this because? It sounds like you are saying that the things which are true are a joke, but deceptive presentations, where the truth is altered is much better.

You may be surprised to learn after death that accurate records are kept in the higher realms of not only the true history of humanity, but of all creation.

True history has more true usable symbolism in it than a concocted and altered history, even if the writers were clever and had good intent. Good intent does not create the communication of true principles whereas real truth pieced together does.

Peter:

What is important is the development of the soul and soul does not speak in our language. We have to learn the language of the soul and in order for the most basic concepts to be past down from one generation to the next it has to be written in allegory using context clues that would reawaken within true seekers the clues to the language of the soul by applying the “Key of Knowledge” to each passage.

JJ

I am all for teaching in allegory as I have done it many times but little can be gained writing something that is not true (with some hidden meaning included) and then presenting it to the world as true history when it is not. If it is accepted as true, as the New Testament is by most, then, readers will not be looking for the hidden meaning. The few that do will rarely agree with what that hidden meaning is. If Allan is the only one who understands the hidden meaning what then was accomplished by the fictional presentation, other than the masses accepting a thing that is not true?

As it is, there are many parables presented by Jesus with no deception involved at all. Everyone understood that they were not literally true and they had an allegorical meaning. Jesus also clearly explained that they had a higher meaning than the obvious. I notice that Allan uses the parables a lot in teaching but rarely uses the historical narrative which he says is also supposed to contain mysteries in allegory.

Peter:

…because we are not giving you the answer you want and you won’t stop until we agree with you.

JJ

That is not the problem. The problem is that I have not yet received an answer.

Peter:

Well I hate to break it to you…it has been asked and answered by Allan through his soul directly to you and you just don’t want to accept it.

JJ

Then could you tell me in a sentence or two what the answer was?

Again, here was the question:

Do you know of any useful knowledge anyone has derived from fiction presented as historical fact?

 

July 25, 2014

The Bible Fact or Fiction Continued

Allan:

You have an entirely different vision and understanding of scriptures than I do. What you seem to portray are accounts — i.e., historical, folklore, or even myths — that are passed down and recorded in the scriptures.

JJ

You seem to incorrectly see me as someone with a fundamentalist view. Nothing could be further from the truth. I do not see all the scriptures a literal historical truth though some may be. They were written by imperfect people and then most of them have been altered since originally written. I read the scriptures like I read everything else – by the light of the soul. If it speaks to the inner spirit I accept it and if not then I do not.

A quotation attributed to me is:

One with soul contact can find more truth from the National Enquirer than one who is in illusion can find in the Bible

Allan

In contradistinction to this view which you share with those in the linear-intellectual community, my perception is that every word and aspect of the scriptures is a conscious portrayal of body, mind and spirit embodied in a road-map of the Laws and Forces of Mind and Being.

JJ

I’m surprised you would think that “every word” is part of a roadmap when you teach that the scriptures we have today are corrupted. There are also a lot of mistranslations from the earliest Greek and Hebrew manuscripts.

But I agree that the scriptures in general present a roadmap to higher truth if one interprets them by the Spirit.

Allan:

While the authors of the scriptures may begin with a commonly held belief or story out of man’s historical past, every word of what they compose has been reformed into a spiritual account that would be better portrayed as a work of spiritual art. Every name that is used in the scriptures has a meaning — as does every name, place and thing — and these names and quasi-historical events are brought together in the creation of a masterpiece that portrays the blueprint and workings of the mind — and its interaction with spirit and flesh.

JJ

I probably do not see them as infallible as you seem to describe, but, yes, there is a lot of meaning there to be discovered. If you read my writings you’ll see that I have presented a lot of symbolic and inner meaning from the scriptures, including many names.

Allan

Every word of the scriptures — both Old and New Testaments — possess a sacred meaning that is not at all apparent to the vast majority of readers. And the true meaning can only be revealed to the mind of the reader by one’s soul-self or ultimately, the indwelling Logos/Son of God.

JJ

If one is creative he can come up with some type of symbolic meaning from any scripture, but some are much closer to the words of spirit than others. In fact some are quite ordinary and I notice that most of the symbolic meaning you mention from the scriptures are the parables and very little in connection with events. I agree with your emphasis and believe the parables of Jesus are vey rich with meaning compared to some other scriptures and they are presented honestly as fictional stories that teach.

Allan:

Moreover, the true meaning is simply beyond the organic limitations of man to comprehend — and this higher meaning of body, mind and spirit must be revealed to the seeker/disciple from inner spiritual sources that are not in any manner of the thinking of this world. And this is why the reader is instructed not to attempt to interpret the scriptures with preconceived (human) ideas — or, to take an interpretation from without, and attempt to apply this to the scriptures.

JJ

I’ve read a lot of your interpretation of the scriptures and it certainly appears that you are using your organic self to the highest of your rational ability to interpret them just as do many other sincere teachers. Some of your interpretations are more linear and literal than mine and others do use some good symbology.

A student cannot rely on the interpretation of another just because he claims a high contact but must verify all things for himself through the Inner God.

Allan:

With respect to you position that the scriptures are historical accounts, nothing could be further from the truth.

JJ

I think we both agree that the scriptures contain some true history but are not 100% accurate.

Allan

The authors of the scriptures therefore had no motivation to record Cave shadow-images — when the objective was to escape the illusions of this world and open the mind up to the higher reality of mind and spirit — bringing about the next stage of soul-birth that permits the seeker/disciple of Light to become their True Self.

JJ

It sounds like you are saying that the writers of the scriptures are attempting to escape illusion by presenting more illusion. This makes no sense.

In other words, to present truths to the world to enable seekers to escape illusion they create fictional, or illusionary history, and present it as true history.

Allan

You see the scriptures from an entirely different perspective than I do. I would never use such words as fabrications, myths or deceptions to portray the scriptures.

JJ

If a story is not true and yet presented as if it is true then what is it if it is not a deception? Why are you so reluctant to call a spade a spade? If Jesus did not walk on water, and the writer knew this, yet presented the story as being true then this was a lie plain and simple and such a writer will have to answer for his act.

“But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.” Matt 12:36-37

Allan

You see the scriptures as historical or quasi-historical accounts — whereas, I see the scriptures as patterns and blueprints of mind impressed into accounts that reveal the Laws and Forces of Consciousness to those who are able to perceive beyond the garb of the cloak of the written word. Our perception of the scriptures therefore has nothing in common.

JJ

We have more in common than you acknowledge.

(1) We both see the scriptures as part allegory and part true history. We only differ in degree.

(2) We both believe that they need to be interpreted through the light of the inner Christ or soul.

(3) We both believe they have a lot of inner meaning not apparent to the average student.

(4) We both believe they have suffered from corruption.

(5) We both see a lot of meaning in the parables not obvious to Bible students.

The main point where we differ is this.

You think the writers did a good thing in fabricating history and presenting it as truth because they placed a lot of hidden truth in them.

I, on the other hand, believe in the simple truth that honesty is the best policy and we cannot obtain liberation from the physical plane by using deceptive means. We trust God and His spirit which dwells in us because we know that whatever is revealed is true and not just something fabricated to teach us a lesson.

You have covered a lot of material (and I agree with a lot of it) but still have not answered my question.

Can you give me an example of any useful knowledge anyone has derived from fiction presented as historical fact?

It would only take a paragraph or two to answer this.

***

The Value of History

Shawn:

I would ask this question, what do I gain if it is a history? Does it advance you spiritually at all?

JJ

That is like asking if truth advances us spiritually. Everything of which we can write or speak is either truth or error. Why would anyone on the Path choose error? Every piece of truth is a piece of the puzzle of the whole and when error or deception is chosen the individual is then faced with a missing piece.

“But we live in a world of illusion so it matters not how the illusion is presented because it is still illusion.” says one.

Well, a dream is even more illusionary than waking life but what happened in the dream is still a real experience with symbolic meaning. If my wife asks what I dreamed of last light and I relate a total lie because it sounds good then that is a sin against the light of the soul. It is a sin against the light to lie about a dream, about events that happen in our normal waking state or about any experience in our or out of the worlds of illusion. A deception blacks out a piece of the picture of the whole truth and pulls the deceiver further in to illusion.

Allan, in his actual writings, seems to support the idea of presenting true history. He considers it true history that he was the brother of Jesus in a past life and presents this as true history many times in his writings.

Many times he attempts to accurately quote the true (not the untrue) writings of the church fathers to support what he sees as truth.

Then he attempts to relate the true history of how the scriptures were corrupted and the true disciples were persecuted.

He emphasizes the importance of finding the true historical scriptures as they reveal more pure truth than the distorted ones.

It indeed appears that the truth of history is very important to Allan in the presentation of many of his writings.

Almost daily in your forum is the presentation of historical facts giving it meaning. Peter just gave some historical information today also mentioned previously by Allan. Let me quote:

“What Allan spoke of happened within the Ebionite communities within the gathering of the elders. Each community was roughly around 50 or so to keep the attention down and therefore have less focus on them. Within each community were elders or those whose souls were more spiritually advanced in that they could perceive spiritual concepts from multiple perspectives, but there were some who were slightly less advanced who could see things from only a select few perspectives. Now in their gatherings when someone spoke the other elders would listen and understood that while they might have a differing perspective on a subject they also understood that the individual speaking was speaking from their perspective at the level they were at. It was understanding that each person was on a different rung of Jacob’s ladder. They were free to speak openly and without judgment but there was as Beth mentioned discernment.”

I didn’t see anyone criticizing Peter for bring up useless true history.

Shawn:

Looking at it as a history and literally you may lead a slightly less selfish life. You may help the needy and you may sing songs on Sunday. What would it benefit you if Jesus turned water into wine, walked on water, was raised to to the heavens to be tempted by Satan to rule all the earthly kingdoms? It doesn’t benefit you at all.

JJ

Totally untrue. If Jesus really turned water into wine then this tells me that this is something I can also learn to do. If he didn’t really do it and this power has never been demonstrated then maybe such a power is beyond our abilities.

They used to think the four-minute mile was impossible but when this milestone was surpassed, and this true event circulated, the truth was out there that this feat could be done, and after this many others accomplished the same thing.

The truth of the possibilities of human ability is of extreme importance to know.

On the other hand, let us take an apparent inconsequential true event. Let us say I got up at 8 AM and told a friend that I got up at 7 AM knowing that this was not true. No harm done, right? Because it makes no difference to the friend what time I get up.

Wrong.

The truth makes a difference to the soul and when we knowingly replace truth with error we sin against the light whether that deception has small or large consequences. And it matters not whether the deception seems to be for the other persons own good. Every unfaithful spouse who lies to his partner does so to avoid hurting him or her. Does this effort to benefit his partner justify the lie?

No, it does not.

These are lessons that children rightfully learn in Sunday School. It is strange indeed that I need to repeat them here on a forum seeking higher truth. The most basic of all truth is truth itself.

Shawn:

Knowing Jesus/Yeshua rode on top of a donkey into Jerusalem on top of palm leaves through a certain gate of the city does nothing for me. However, the allegory presented in that portion of text is full of information. The animal and mineral/vegetable kingdom being domesticated/submissive to the Jesus speaks volumes.

JJ

So by extension, when we see the Lone Ranger riding his horse we are witnessing the great truth of “the animal and mineral/vegetable kingdom being domesticated/submissive” to the rider?

Give me a break. I got to give you credit for a good imagination here though.

Shawn:

When Jesus healed the blind man, what did this do from a historical context? He healed one blind man. He had done many miracles before so why was this one included if it was historically true?

JJ

Maybe because it was historically true. Why would you think otherwise? Because someone told you so?

Shawn:

If it is an allegory we can look past the literal

JJ

A seeker can always look past the literal whether the story be truth or fiction.

Shawn

Like your question, you demand an answer yet could you handle the unveiled truth? Would it do more harm than good?

JJ

Test me out and see if I can handle it. For some odd reason no one has answered my very simple question.

Can you give me an example of any useful knowledge anyone has derived from fiction presented as historical fact?

You mentioned Jesus riding the donkey but did not give me a clue as to how the information you gathered was useful and furthermore how do you know the incident did not really happen?

***

Answer to Beth

Beth:

Actually I did not say “historical truth” .. I said “as originally written are truth”….you added the word historical.

JJ

But if you label historical events, such as in the Bible as true, then one would naturally assume that you are referring to the history as well as any inner meaning.

For instance, if you say the scripture about Jesus walking on water is true then one naturally assumes you think Jesus walked on water.

Peter talked about the history of the Ebonites and I assume he is talking about more than allegory.

Beth:

I have recently read some of your articles and find interesting things there as well as some things I do not see the same way… and that is OK. Wasn’t the goal of the cross pollination between the forums to share your perspective with us and vice versa? If so, then it may be more fruitful if you tell us more about your thoughts instead of critiquing Allan’s writings or demanding we answer your specific questions as if it is some sort of test.

JJ

Good point. I didn’t plan on starting out on this subject as I knew it would press some buttons. Here is how this evolved.

Stephen came up with this idea of cross posting and Allan didn’t seem that interested, but Stephen thought he could convince him. Some time had passed and I thought the idea was shelved. In the meantime I thought that discussing his idea of the scriptures not being true history would be of interest to the Keys group so I asked some questions for consideration.

Immediately after that post Allan responded, apparently thinking this was my first post in Stephens plan. After the discussion was placed in effect I figured the best thing to do was to go with it.

If this accident had not occurred I would have started off with some type of teaching that would have been more agreeable to the your group.

Maybe the next subject attempted will be more harmonious to both groups

By the way, I pick up a positive vibe from you as a sincere and kind person. One more thing Allan and I have in common is the fortune of having good companions.

***

Useful Knowledge

Here is another response I gave to Allan’s group.

Pure Practice (Gary):

I get the feeling you are playing a version of 20 questions. That is you have an answer, from your perspective, that you believe is valid to your OWN question:

Can you give me an example of any useful knowledge anyone has derived from fiction presented as historical fact?

If you do, why not just share it and let it be examined?

JJ

There are many possible answers to this question as it is not complicated at all.

Allan tells us that most of the history as presented in the New Testament is fiction, as it was not written with any consideration of historical fact but to convey inner meaning to the more evolved seekers. The outer presentation was fiction presented as true to pacify the unwashed masses.

In other words, the writers knowingly fabricated accounts and presented the material as being something that literally happened, or as true history.

There are hundreds of examples that could be drawn from the New Testament if Allan is correct. There are also hundreds of false teachers out there who are presenting false accounts as if they are true in an attempt to teach truth and gain followers.

In all my experience I have not found much light that pointed me to new knowledge among any writings where the author presented the teachings or history to be true when he knew it was not.

When I first asked this question it was just to my group, but now it has been expanded to this group. I am wondering if anyone has actually gleamed any significant knowledge that is not already readily available from anything in the New Testament or other works where the writers presented fictionalized accounts as being true.

My belief is that there could not be a lot of light hidden in such deception.

Dina

Even if every miracle recorded in the Gospels were literally true, exactly as written, how would “knowing” that such and such a thing happened transform YOU into Messiah/Christ?

JJ

It wouldn’t, and I do not know of anyone who thinks that it would. On the other hand, presenting fiction as being a true account or falling for the deception would hinder one from manifesting Christ.

 

July 26, 2014

Judgment

I posted this on Allan’s forum:

Allan writes:

If you are going to post on their forum, be respectful and practice humbleness. It is clear that they are at a different level than the members of this forum — and we can’t be of assistance to them if we offend them.

JJ

Three or four times now you have insinuated that the Keys members are of a lower level than your group. So far I have let this slide but now I see you are repeating this I must stand up for my students who I would favorably compare to any others on the internet.

Of course, you must keep in mind that there are several who have joined and are moderated who see me as an enemy and are not students. Through limited moderation I seek to allow as many diverse opinions on the forum as possible.

Both your forum and mine have members who are at different grades of spiritual evolution, but one of the greatest mistakes one can make is assuming that one has a higher seat at the table than is earned, and even if one thinks this, he should take the lower seat and let his actual words and works speak for themselves.

Instead of judging the other group to be inferior I think we should be open to the possibilities that there are some significant lights in both groups.

You have dealt with Stephen and I’m sure you will agree that he is a true seeker, seeking to manifest the Christ within. There are quite a few others like him on the keys.

***

Rick:

Stating, up front, that a book, broadcast or movie is fiction is no guarantee that it will be seen as such.

JJ

That is indeed true but that misses my point which is this. If a person produces a work of fiction with the intent of deceptively presenting it as truth then the one with deception as his motive would be working on restricted light and anything he produces would be of low value. True, some may get something out of it, but nothing like Eternal words delivered by one dedicated to pure truth.

***

Kindred Soul

Larry W says:

Object lesson: you don’t enhance rights by taking them away. Even so you do not enhance truth by taking it away.

JJ

Great statement.

Normally Larry is a harmless fuzzball, full of love and kindness, but this idea presented that the scriptures are based on intentional historical untruths has really riled him up.

Note to Larry, who is not moderated.

I agree with you that it would be an outrageous violation of the principle of truth if Bible writers fabricated history in an attempt to teach truth acceptable to the masses, but I see no evidence that Allan is trying to be deceptive or lies in his current life.

We have an opportunity to befriend another group and share with them as an experiment. Let us not stop it before it gets a good start by calling anyone a liar – for that is pretty strong language.

If there is something that you see that is not true identify it and then explain why it is not true without using any name calling. Let us demonstrate the quality of this group by being as civil as possible.

 

July 27, 2014

Questions from Flo

Here are some answers to Flo, Allan’s wife. I was thinking that Beth was his wife, but i guess it is Flo.

Flo:

I write to you about a good man, a man with integrity, the man I have been married to for almost forty years…

JJ

I’m sure he is a good man. I have never said otherwise.

Flo

You implied on your forum that you rather not converse in a confrontational manner… I think you called it in the “manner of John”…

JJ

I do not mind confrontation when it is called for. The “manner of John” has nothing to do with confrontation but refers to teaching and learning by asking questions as related in my Immortal books. This method is not confrontational, but provokes thought.. This whole exchange began when I asked a couple questions to my group and happened to get posted over here.

Flo

Yet you portray Allan as someone that does not believe in the Bible???

JJ

This I have not done. I have said that we both see the Bible as part true and part myth, but differ in degree and in the intent of the writers.

Flo

Allan’s position is the Bible (except for the Epistles) and all Scripture is truth with a three-fold meaning. Allan would never say that any Scripture is fabricated, a lie, untrue, a myth, a deception, fiction, and made up.

JJ

It seems to be you are is not representing Allan’s belief’s correctly. Does he or does he not believe that the Bible writers made up some of the history that is in the Bible? Does he believe that Jesus fed the 5000 with fishes and bread? Does he believe that Jesus walked on water, got tax money from a fish and other miracles as written? He has pretty much said in black and white that many of these things did not happen but were placed there by the writers of scripture and contain symbolism for teaching.

He just said today that when the names like Peter James and John are mentioned in the gospels that they do not really refer to them but we need to see the meaning behind the names instead. In other words the accounts of such men are made up, fabricated or fiction even though they may contain hidden meaning.

So when the group here says the Bible is true or truth they are not referring to all of it, but parts of it. If the Bible writers knew Jesus did not walk on water yet say he did with no caveat of it being a parable then obviously that part presented as history was not history and was fabricated, fictionalized, made up or whatever you want to call it. Because history is seen to be made up for a benevolent purpose the group seems gun-shy about calling it what it is. If a thing is said to have happened when the writer knows it has not then that is a know untruth. I do not know any other way to honestly say it. Sorry.

I do not understand why you would be upset at me restating what Allan has already said.

Flo:

Now, I totally respect the fact that you are taught by the Spirit within… why do you not respect that Allan also was taught from the Spirit within him?

JJ

I do. I think he has received some good things and doing a good work, but that doesn’t mean I automatically agree with everything he says, just as he does not agree with everything I say.

Flo

Your words are more than confrontational… They are insulting, and you are confronting Allan in a negative way. Why???

JJ

I am trying to be as civil as possible. Can you give me an example of something negative I’ve said that bothers you? Most of my writing here has been answering questions and I am trying not to offend anyone.

Flo:

why do you feel it necessary to put a negative twist on Allan’s words???

JJ

I have tried to represent Allan’s views as he has presented them. If I present anything incorrectly just let me know.

Flo:

Every scripture is written with a three-fold…Body, Mind, and Spirit

JJ

I agree and have taught this many times myself, even before Allan started teaching on the internet.

Flo:

Why not state what you have been taught by Spirit and likewise with Allan and leave out the insults? Like it or not, Spirit will touch others, each according to their condition.

JJ

I do not believe I have insulted anyone here. If I have I apologize. I believe in keeping all discussions on a friendly nature.

As I said earlier this first topic here occurred by accident and it has generated a lot of questions to which many seen to want answers. I’ll try and introduce a less controversial topic next time.

Flo:

I thought Allan was an invited guest to JJ’s forum, as he was invited to ours! Does insults rally his base? For what purpose does JJ be so uninviting? He is guiding his forum members into being not only unloving, but being nasty.

JJ

Again I do not see how I have been nasty or uninviting. All of Allan’s posts on the Keys forum is welcome by me.

One guy sent Allan a nasty email but he is not a student and is just as nasty toward me and one member overreacted. I have cautioned the group to be civil and if they go too far off base I will take action. I try to give the group as much latitude as possible.

Meanwhile I hope you will realize that I am attempting to respond to your husband according to his stated beliefs.

***

Gary’s Question

Gary asks:

So if you know of “many possible answers”, why not share a few?

He is referring to this question I have asked many times and still waiting for an answer.

Tell us (those who read this) a fabricated story presented as true that has taught you a significant truth.

I personally have not gotten much truth from fabricated stories, but if one reads through the eyes of the soul he could get some benefit from the words of the devil himself.

To answer your question I will put myself in the thinking mode of a good group member here. As I understand it Allan believes that Jesus did not really walk on water but the story was created, fabricated, fictionalized, or whatever you want to call it, for the purpose of conveying a truth.

If a member here answered my question using this example he could have said.

“Yes, I believe the walking on water thing was fiction but water is a symbol of the emotions and air is a symbol of mind. The idea of walking on water conveys the idea that we need to master our emotions so we can breath the clean air of pure reason undisturbed by negativity.”

You overlook the reason I asked the question to begin with. I believe there is much more truth presented in true history than in fiction presented as true history.

So, I was curious to see if anyone could come up with a false event which has been presented as true and still get anything significant out of it.

I believe that there is good symbolic meaning in Jesus walking on water because he did actually walk on water, but there is no way to prove this one way or another.

Even in this the symbolism nothing new is taught that couldn’t be conveyed in simple words or a good parable – or fiction presented as fiction.

***

More Questions

Julio

Wouldn’t it be fair to say that since God is a God of Truth according to Deuteronomy 32:4 that the language that He speaks is Truth as it relates to what you hear from Him when you hear His Voice in your inner Kingdom?

JJ

Yes, that would be fair indeed and we should seek the inner voice.

Robert:

Allan has been trying to show that not only are the Scriptures allegory; but so too is all of life. So that would include the Lone Ranger too.

JJ

One can interpret anything allegorically, but most are inclined to enjoy fiction for fun rather than serious interpretation. Unlike regular fiction a parable is mentally put together to clarify some important truth.

Amos

Since you wrote about judgment, do you understand the difference between discerning and judging?

JJ

Yes.

Allan writes:

While there was an historical man named Peter, John and Jacob who they call James, when these names are used in the scriptures, the scriptures are not making reference to the historical person — but what the meaning of the name signifies within one’s own mind and being.

Then there must be a tremendous amount of meaning hidden in these names. Do you mind sharing what several of them mean and why you think the meaning is significant or useful?

Matt 1:2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;

Matt 1:3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;

Matt 1:4 And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon;

Matt 1:5 And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;

Matt 1:6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;

Matt 1:7 And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa;

Matt 1:8 And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias;

Matt 1:9 And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias;

Matt 1:10 And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias;

Matt 1:11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:

Matt 1:12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;

Matt 1:13 And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor;

Matt 1:14 And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud;

Matt 1:15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;

Matt 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

***

Truth Be Told

Allan:

You continue to portray what I write as suggesting the scriptures are fiction, because you are attempting to repeat a lie in the hope that others will believe you.

JJ

You seem to be in extreme denial on this and I’m surprised no one from your own group has called you on it. This is evidence that they are relying too strongly on you as an external authority and not checking with the inner truth verified by the soul. The denial also explains why it takes you thousands of words to state what could be simply explained in a paragraph.

Your teaching of the truth of the Bible is extremely confusing and obscure to those who are not enamored with your claims to authority, so let us clear this up once and for all.

(1) Did the writers of the New Testament scripture intentionally write in people, events and history into them that did not occur as events in this physical reality?

(2) Remember we are not talking about allegorical truth here so answer this. Would such writings be fiction or non fiction, historically true or not true?

(3) Is the intentional presentation of information you know to be not true, as if it were true, a lie or not?

Please answer this in your own words without relying on outer authorities, or linking to a lengthy website, and try and be concise.

***

To Beth

Beth relating what she sees as new principles.

• Holographic Pattern of Creation
• Keys of Knowledge
• Higher Soul Self and its Soul Images
• Being of Light
• Pre-Existent Soul
• Predestination
• Reincarnation
• Living Biofeedback Organism
• Octaves – Intervals and Twists
• Consecrated Life – Good Ground
• Do NO Harm
• Scriptures – Language of the Soul
• Tree of Life – 12 Spheres
• Duality and Oneness
• Divine Marriage
• Gnosis – Truth Within
• Entering the Kingdom

JJ

Teachings on most of these can be found in many new age sites and topics of conversation are not principles. Principles are the true language of the soul but first one must understand what a principle is.

Beth:

JJ, I agree with Flo that it seems you started this off by basically saying Allan is a liar

JJ

I have never called anyone in my life a liar and have not called Allan one. If someone says something that appears to not be true I will point out why the statement seems to not be true and allow for the person to explain himself.

Beth

and you called your “students” to answer 4 questions to prove or disprove Allan. Whether that was just intended for your forum or both forums is not important… it is what you set in motion in either case.

JJ

And what is the matter with a class taking a teaching, examining it in the light of day, and then reaching the best possible compulsion as to whether it is true? Allan has done this numerous times.

Beth:

It feels like the attacking/discrediting tone overall was triggered by your approach. It is you that must set a different tone, a cooperative environment where everyone can easily share their thoughts and questions without joining a battle of sorts or forced to declare allegiance. Does this make sense?

JJ

It takes two sides to create a battle

***

Allan, I understand what you are saying with crystal clarity as you have repeated the same simple teachings many many times. There is nothing complicated here except that you are making it so by refusing to speak in plain English and when you get in a situation that you can’t handle you just tell everyone that theanswer is too far above us to understand.

Do you realize how silly this sounds?

Me understanding you or your lofty thoughts us not the problem.

The problem is simple communication which you outright refuse to do on this issue.

Why don’t you take a stab at those three questions so we can once and for all clarify how you really view the scriptures so we can have a good starting point for a discussion that involves real truth.

If a guy says a thing is red at one time and yellow at another then this makes it difficult to discuss anything to do with the color.

You say the historical accounts of the scriptures did not happen on one occasion and then insist they are true on another. We need to have consistency in order to have an intelligent conversation.

JJ

***

Peter’s Question

Peter:

Before we can go further, do you think people learning from their inner Christ (soul-self) get the same message person to person?

JJ

If you are asking whether or not two will get the same message on the same subject without contradiction the answer is yes.

So, why does everyone who thinks they are in contact with the Inner Christ not agree? Several reasons.

(1) Many merely contact their emotional/astral body which turns many things upside down and takes them into illusion. High emotional contact can still feel quite Christlike to one who has not felt the real thing and lead him to illusion.

(2) One may make contact and then fail to accurately communicate that which was received and thus appear to be at odds with another who has received the same thing.

(3) There are yet others who think that anything they imagine that feels good to them comes from God.

***

Allan:

We want to see the New Age wisdom on the twelve (12) sphere Tree of Life. The Law of Octaves. The Divine Marriage. The New Age version of the Images generated by the soul-self . Also, their biblical understanding of the Key of Knowledge — and how to properly apply the scriptures by turning them within self. I really want the links that JJ is referencing, so I can read this New Age wisdom.

JJ

It might be a good start for you to explain some of these yourself. For instance I have not seen you explain “how to properly apply the scriptures by turning them within self. ” You have said that we need to do this, but haven’t seen you demonstrate it or show others the path to achieve this.

As for me, I have written on about every spiritual subject there is. You can start with this link:

https://freeread.com/archives/

***

Beth:

I have been reading several of JJ’s archived messages today and have found things that resonate right along with TheWay teachings… but it is like some force is fighting to derail this interaction. This runs deep… feels like a replay of a battle from a prior life. It is fascinating, amazing and exhausting all at the same time. Hmmm….

JJ

I commend you for being open minded enough to check out some of my writings. This is an important step. Before we even started this process I read about 150,000 words from Allan’s websites. This gave me a pretty good idea of where he is coming from – as I do not like to enter any enterprise such as this with false assumptions.

I said earlier that I received a good vibe from you but I seem to have been mistaken in thinking you were Allan’s wife.

I may not have come across as Mr. Nice Guy here (and Allan isn’t on our forum) but the Key to making progress on this enterprise is accurate communication. We have hit a very unnecessary snag in communication with this Bible history fiction thing. I’m not saying anyone is a liar, evil or a bad person but just think that a simple thing like what is fiction and what is not should be easy to see. If we cannot see the easy things together how then can we see the difficult ones?

Allan thinks I do not understand him, but I do. I am just attempting to get us to both say that red is red so we can identify the simple truth when red is seen on the horizon.

***

To Flo

Flo:

Scripture is written having a body, mind, and Spirit meaning to it. To which you said you agree. The words have a deeper meaning than that which are written…a Higher Truth on a three-fold level… Not a falsehood, untruth, lie, deception, fabrication, etc. but a Higher Truth.

JJ

But if it says that Jesus walked on water when he did not how can you with a straight face say there is is no untruth there??? Just because there is symbolic truth underneath does not mean that the outer is also true – if it is historically false.

I am amazed that this simple thing is so difficult for this group to see.

Flo

No One, is going to say the Bible is anything but Truth, so can you move on…

JJ

But Allan has said the historical part is not true. Strange approach you have here.

If we cannot resolve this through honest communication without claiming the other side doesn’t see the higher truth then this problem is likely to reoccur. But if the mindset here is to avoid questions and not answer them on this subject then we may have to move on to something else and hope for the best.

***

Beth:

I do NOT consider physical history to be fact…

JJ

It’s pretty difficult to have a logical discussion with a group that doesn’t believe facts like Kennedy was assassinated, that George Washington was our first president or that Obama is our historical president today.

This is a really odd belief system I am dealing with here that I have encountered in no other group and it has nothing to do with truths in the Bible, finding Christ within or spiritual progress. This hindrance of seeing reality just interferes with it.

***

To Shohn

Shohn:

Fishing around on the Internet for a quote from Origen, I found a web site which seems to use a similar line of reasoning as can be found in some of Allan’s writings:

“What man of sense will agree with the statement that the first, second and third days in which the evening is named and the morning, were without sun, moon and stars, and the first day without a heaven. What man is found such an idiot as to suppose that God planted trees in paradise in Eden, like a husbandman, and planted therein the tree of life, perceptible to the eyes and senses, which gave life to the eater thereof; and another tree which gave to the eater thereof a knowledge of good and evil? I believe that every man must hold these things for images, under which the hidden sense lies concealed” (Origen – Huet., Prigeniana, 167 Franck, p. 142).

The same blogger continue on to say: “Sometimes the untruths in scripture are so blatant that only a fool would believe the literal text of the scriptures”.

Source: https://lostchristianity.wordpress.com/tag/origen/

If what Origen writes is true, maybe only an … idiot … would think Jesus actually walked on water?

If I were to use a comparison to the modern time frame, what if you encountered someone who believed in Spiderman?

JJ

You and others seem to completely, absolutely miss the point of the problem here, It has nothing to do with finding symbolic meaning in the scriptures, contradictions in scripture or whether Jesus walked on water.

It has to do with the support of the idea that the Bible writers presented false history as true history and thinking this deception was not a deception and was a righteous thing to do. Why do you think that the fabrication of history was not a fabrication of history? I am amazed that more than a dozen people on the planet can swallow such a contradictory idea.

Copyright 2014 by J J Dewey

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