Category: Teachings

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Equality

April 22, 2017 Joseph Dewey

April 23, 2017

Extremism in Alternative Spirituality

Part 3 – Equality

Another very popular ideal in alternative spiritualty is equality. Equality in some measure has been stressed by many spiritual teachers and even found in the Declaration of Independence:

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”

Unfortunately, the idea of equality is interpreted differently by various people.

Most reasonable people accept the idea as it applies to opportunity. That is, even though we are all in different circumstances we should all have equal opportunity to use the talents we have to succeed in life.

Many do not expect equality of income but when they read that the eight richest people in the world have as much combined wealth as the poorer half of the entire population of the world they become concerned. This does seem like an undesirable inequality.

People overall want to see each person have a fair shot at life and many things they see happening around them make them feel this may not be happening.

This causes some to take this good ideal and go to the extreme – way beyond merely applying it to opportunity and instead equating equality with sameness.

An example of this extreme emerges from some feminists who claim that for the sexes to be equal we must recognize that, outside of obvious physical differences, they are the same. Some claim that boys act differently than girls because of societal and family influences. In other words, boys would play with dolls and girls with guns in equal amounts if they were raised with the same influences.

I think that most reasonable people will agree that males and females are different enough in nature that it would be detrimental to attempt to force sameness on our children. The logical path is to allow a child to develop though his or her free will and give them as much equal opportunity to succeed according to their desires and talents.

For society to attain maximum equality we must realize what it is and have the desired end presented to us as a people so we can all head the same direction.

Before we can set a goal on equality we must realize that there are differences in everything and this must be a part of the equation. We ought to be happy about this rather than disgusted for the world would be a boring place if we were all the same .

Each person is a unique individual, different from everyone else. Each family is different and yes, each race has different qualities, as well as each city, state and nation.

Fair minded people do not judge the differences in others as being inferior or superior but in general as aspects to be appreciated. Tourists enjoy traveling to different countries because of the differences. They enjoy being exposed to culture and customs different than their own and appreciate them rather than scorn them in most vases.

The fair minded do not want sameness, which can be very detrimental, as is the case of the people of North Korea, but a reasonable equality can be a very good thing.

Here is what we should shoot for.

(1) A fairly equal opportunity to succeed in life. We cannot expect complete equality here as some will always have the advantage of better parents, friends, contacts, available opportunity etc. The main thing desired is that all possible obstacles are removed from all the people so everyone can climb the ladder according to his desire and ability.

(2) Abundance for all. Who cares if Mr. Smith makes more than you if you have enough wealth to enjoy a good life. Studies show that once a person reaches an income where he can live in reasonable comfort that more money does not bring more happiness. Yes the guy with a roof over his head is usually happier than the homeless person, but money can only increase well-being up to a point. After basic needs are taken care of, money does not buy happiness.

Taking the wealth of the few by force and redistributing it never ends well. Instead of seeking such leveling by force let us seek to increase wealth for all working with the free agency of humankind.

When the needs of the many are met then there will be a more natural tendency toward equality and sharing.

(3) The elimination of grievances. A lot of people put so much attention and energy on their grievances because they feel shortchanged in life that they have little focus left over to concentrate on personal success. This chip on the shoulder that many have is picked up from family, friends, the media, politicians and schools. As a society we must focus more on seeing the glass half full than half empty. Unless we do this then no amount of equality will bring satisfaction to the masses. There will always be one more thing needed before illusionary happiness can be obtained.

The mistake then made by many spiritually minded is to go to the extreme, way beyond these three points and seek for sameness rather than true practical equality.

Sameness will never be attained but a fair system where all have a reasonable opportunity of success is a goal that the world will eventually achieve.

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Inclusiveness

April 21, 2017 Joseph Dewey

April 21, 2017

Extremism in Alternative Spirituality, Part 2

Inclusiveness

Peace is indeed the number one ideal embraced by alternative believers. It is an ideal supported by both the mentally and emotionally polarized, by the sixth ray people going out of influence and the seventh ray coming in. The main difference between the two is in the approach, not the desired end result of peace and goodwill.

In addition to peace there are a number of other ideals that are too firmly embraced with the sixth ray attitude of a black and white approach leading to extremism. What is overlooked is every virtue must be applied with good judgment else it will turn into a vice.

For instance, we all realize that generosity is a good quality, but if a parent gives away all the family’s grocery money to a good cause he will be doing harm to his children who may go hungry. Good sense is always the bottom line for anyone seeking to become a master of wisdom.

So let us look at some other ideals endorsed by those in alternative spirituality.

Inclusiveness would be high on the list. They teach that a lack of inclusiveness pervades Christianity for many believe that only members of their church or belief system will be saved and some are accused of favoring the rich or a certain class of people. Most alternative folks feel they are free from this fault and see themselves as having a loving open door welcoming all into the fold. Many have also stepped into the political arena and have advocated welcoming all across the borders, legal or not. Many want no screening process at all to filter out criminals.

Indeed it is a virtue to be inclusive if applied with common sense, but like all virtues, if taken to the extreme, it becomes negative rather than positive.

Let us use the Law of Correspondences and relate open borders to a family home. For U.S. citizens the United States is our larger home, but in the microcosm the property we live in is our home also.

Now you may have a relative or friend call now and then asking if they can crash a few days. It may be an inconvenience but you accept them and figure you are being inclusive.

Now suppose an old acquaintance who you never considered a close friend shows up on your doorstep with a wife, six kids and three large dogs. Taking him in may indeed test your normally inclusive nature.

If one really wanted to be inclusive he could take in a few homeless people. The trouble is that even if one was willing he would be nervous about doing it since the homeless guy could be on drugs and dangerous.

But let us suppose that Billy Bob is one righteous dude and decides to open his home and resources to those in need. He invites three homeless people to stay with him. He is fortunate in that he chose three that were not dangerous, but he finds they do take much more advantage of his good nature than he planned. His favorite food and drink disappear very quickly.

Then a couple days later word spreads about his good nature and three more homeless show up on his doorstep with very sad stories. Billy Bob reluctantly lets them in, thinking it is good to be inclusive.

Several days later, after having his house trashed, three more show up. He is determined to be inclusive and again lets them in. Then it becomes a daily occurrence for more to show up until his house is overflowing with all kinds of strange individuals who were more concerned with getting than giving. Finally, after sustaining more grief and expense than he could handle he throws his arms up and orders all of then to leave. Several become angry and threaten him and say they are staying no matter what. Billy Bob is beside himself and decides the only thing he can do is move out and let the bunch fend for themselves.

He gets a room at the Motel 6 and waits. Within a month the home has suffered so much destruction and abuse that it was not even fit for the homeless to live in. The bunch then leaves the house and moves into a shelter that at least has running water and some food.

Was Billy Bob inclusive?

He seemed to be.

Should our nation take the Billy Bob approach to our borders?

Obviously if we do not operate with some limitations too many people in need entering the country could wind up creating much damage as happened to Billy Bob.

Did Billy Bob practice the principle of inclusion and does our country if it uses no judgment as to who may enter?

No.

So are some true believers being extreme and advocating the Billy Bob approach to inclusiveness and open borders?

Indeed they are.

Part of the reason for this is that various teachers have rightfully taught of a time in the future where we will have open borders, throughout the world. Unfortunately, believers see such teachings in terms of black and white that need to be applied right now with no judgment involved.

In our story Billy Bob had a problem because of the great inequality between him and those he tried to include. That created a situation where he needed to use common sense in applying his inclusiveness, else more harm than good would result. If he lived in a city where all had a place to live then his inclusiveness would not create such a problem.

We see this working out with the borders of the United States. Because of the great inequality of the people south of our border we have the problem of millions crossing the border illegally.

On the other hand, because there are fairly comparable standards of living between Canada and the USA we do not have the same problem with them. We can be as inclusive as we want with Canadians with no negative results.

The solution with Mexico is to assist them in obtaining an efficient government and productive society so their standard of living will increase.

When Mexicans can earn as much in Mexico as they do in the United States then the problem will be solved and open borders will be no problem. In that case we would probably have as many U.S. citizens going south as Mexicans coming north.

The key to wisdom here is that as much as we want to be inclusive, generous and helpful all must be done with the application of thought. Without this the person may wind up doing more harm than good. If we do more harm than good, even with good intentions, we will create negative karma.

Jesus was an inclusive guy, but even he acknowledged limits in his parable of the wise virgins.

The five wise virgins saved up oil for their lamps so they could have sufficient to meet the bridegroom. The five foolish did not. When the call came the five wise lighted their lamps and proceeded, and the five foolish asked to borrow some of their oil. They replied that if they shared then none of them would have enough for the journey to meet the bridegroom. They thus refused and went on their way.

The five wise virgins had the choice which was this. Was it better that five achieve success or none succeed? They wisely held to the idea that it was better that five succeed than none.

Even so, if our country shares too much and is too inclusive we face the danger that Billy Bob did with his house. Everyone could loose.

The strong can help the weak, but if the strong become weak then there will be no one to help.

At present, instead of violating the principle of the incoming seventh ray with lawlessness, we need to go by the laws that are on the books and if they are seen to be unjust we need to change them. Inclusiveness and lawlessness are a dangerous mixture.

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Extremism in Alternative Spirituality

April 20, 2017March 4, 2019 Joseph Dewey

April 20, 2017

Extremism in Alternative Spirituality

Part 1

It is interesting that those into New age philosophy, Theosophy and metaphysics see themselves as the tolerant inclusive ones whereas the Christian Right is often condemned as exclusive, intolerant, narrow minded and too judgmental. Often the word “extreme” is thrown out in their direction, for they are seen as interpreting things too literally and not seeing the middle way of balance.

So are the alternative spiritual folks as fair and balanced as they present themselves or do they merely duplicate the same faults as orthodox religion, but on the other side of duality?

From my analysis both sides exhibit similar faults. The main difference is in the vocabulary used and the point of attention. Also both sides have many of the same virtues. Neither is all good or all bad.

Here are just a few illusions shared by them both:

Christian Right (CR): Accept our version of Jesus and be saved.

Alternative Spirituality (AS): Accept our message and be saved by (1) Aliens (2) Increased vibration into the fifth dimension (3) Into some paradise after death.

CR: The end is near and the Apocalypse and end of the world is upon us. Only the righteous will be saved.

AS: Humans are bent on destruction, which is coming soon. Only the enlightened will be saved.

Others fear that global warming will bring the end of humanity within a few decades.

CR: Many are too materialistic.

AS: Many of these are also too materialistic seeking mainly wealth and abundance for self.

CR: They are too exclusive, not accepting those who think differently than themselves.

AS: These see themselves as being inclusive, but many reject anything from the Christian right with little attempt to be inclusive or understanding toward them.

CR: They are too black and white in their thinking.

AS: We also see many here who have the same problem, but just in a different belief system.

The bottom line is that there are similar problems with the people in every belief system. Even many of those who are in a highly advanced and fairly accurate belief system benefit little from it because their thoughts have crystalized and are subject to errors in thinking just as much as a more simple ideology.

A huge problem in all belief systems is the black and white approach by many of the rank and file which leads to taking an extreme position.

It is interesting that alternative spiritualty generally see this as a problem for orthodox religious fundamentalists and not themselves. Unfortunately, the problem also exists with them but because it is centered around a different set of beliefs many have a blind spot about it.

Many esoteric students may be perplexed to hear such a statement and would ask: “In what way am I too black and white or extreme?”

In answering this keep in mind that we are all different and we can never paint with a brush that covers everyone, but in some cases the bush affects more than should be the case.

Here is the problem with folks in alternative spirituality. Many are centered strongly on the sixth ray of idealism and have been presented wonderful ideals through their books and their teachers. Some of these ideals are inspiring and will someday manifest intelligently on this planet. The problem humanity has is in manifesting these ideals is that the path is very difficult and complex. Believers are often impatient and want all wonderful ideals to manifest immediately. This often causes them to take a black and white simplistic approach leading to extremism.

The most universal ideal held by alternative spirituality is that of peace.

Just as it is with most ideals peace is indeed very desirable and most everyone wants it. The trouble with many alternative folks is that they go to the extreme in wanting it at any price. Some think all that should be involved here is that everyone just needs to lay down their arms and shake hands.

Unfortunately, the way to peace is a long road and sometimes on that road war may be necessary. The reason for this is that there are things more important than peace. First and foremost is the freedom of the human spirit and sometimes to maintain this a conflict is necessary and the enemy in that conflict must be defeated.

One good thing that came from the experience of World War II is that most of the world now, on hindsight, see that a demarcation was made between good and evil. Hitler and the Nazis were fighting for a cause that diminished freedom and the Allies were fighting to maintain freedom.

Many other wars were controversial and did not have a lot of public support, but most agree that Hitler had to be confronted and defeated.

During the war many alternative folks were pacifists and against the war. They would have rather let Hitler take control and yield to him than resist.

One of the few esoteric teachers who spoke common sense on this issue was Djwhal Khul through Alice A. Bailey. He said this:

“I would say to those who preach a passive attitude in the face of evil and human suffering and who endorse a pacifism which involves no risks: With what do you propose to fight the forces of aggression, of treachery, evil and destruction which are today stalking over our planet? What weapons do you bring to this combat? How will you begin to stem the onslaught and arrest the whirlwind? Will you use prayers for peace, and then patiently wait for the forces of good to fight your battle and for God to do the work? I tell you that your prayers and your wishes are unavailing when divorced from right and potent action. Your prayers and petitions may reach the throne of God, symbolically speaking, but then the reply comes forth: The Forces of Light will strengthen your arms and turn the tide in your favour if you stand up and fight for that which you desire. Who will arrest the progress of aggressive selfishness if the men and women of goodwill rest back upon their idealism and do naught that is practical to justify their hope or aid in the materialisation of the desired ideal.

“There are those in the world today who (despite past national selfishness and wrong) are fearlessly and with true insight fighting humanity’s battle, and with them the Hierarchy stands, as it has ever stood on the side of liberty, right understanding and correct attitudes in human affairs. I would say to those who cry, “Peace, peace when there is no peace”: Are you going to profit by their death and sacrifice when the ultimate triumph of the Forces of Light comes to pass? Are you going to take the position that you can then live in a safe world because others gave their lives that you might do so? Are you going to issue forth from the safe security of your pacifist alibi and gratefully acknowledge what they have done and grasp your share of the gains which they have purchased at such a cost? I would warn you not to be glamoured by the false premise that you must stand by your hard-earned convictions, even at the expense of other peoples’ lives and the downfall of nations, forgetting that fear and false pride will make this argument of importance to you. Are the peace-minded people of the world going to reap the benefits of a peace for which they have paid no price? It is the people who value peace above all else who are today seeking by every possible method to stop Germany.”

The Externalization of the Hierarchy, Page 233

DK also criticized the nations that remained neutral throughout the war indicating they had accumulated some negative karma by doing so.

George Orwell also saw this from a similar angle as noted by Michael Kelly in the Washington Post:

“In 1942 George Orwell wrote this, in Partisan Review, of Great Britain’s pacifists: ‘Pacifism is objectively pro-Fascist.’ This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side you automatically help out that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, ‘he that is not with me is against me.’ England’s pacifists howled, but Orwell’s logic was implacable. The Nazis wished the British to not fight. If the British did not fight, the Nazis would conquer Britain. The British pacifists also wished the British to not fight. The British pacifists, therefore, were on the side of a Nazi victory over Britain. They were objectively pro-Fascist.”

Jesus is often cited as an example to follow by the pacifists but even of him it is written:

“in righteousness he doth judge and make war.” Rev 19:11

Even the scripture of the peaceable Hindus, The Bhagavad Gita, supports war in the right circumstance:

Arjuna was faced with a similar prospect to many in the American Civil War and said this to Krishna:

How can I do battle with my kinsmen, with those I love and who have loved me, for whom I have cared, as they once cared for me? Though they have gathered to serve Duryodhana’s folly, to deprive us of our birthright, to kill me and my brothers on this battlefield, how can I fight them? My body trembles at the thought. My bow falls from my hands. My flesh burns. My arms and legs have no strength. My mind is confused; my reason confounded. I am lost.

… To act is to bring upon us a day of pitch darkness. We have come here for the sake of an earthly kingdom; … But by acting, we reserve for ourselves only a place in Hell. It is best for me if Duryodhana and his armies come before me. Disarmed by doubt, I will not resist them as they kill me. This will be my best reward. These were Arjuna’s words to Krishna as the two armies awaited Arjuna’s signal to begin the battle.

With Arjuna’s words sounding in his ears, Krishna’s spirit quickened. He spoke to Arjuna, whose eyes burned with tears, overwhelmed by despair. Krishna said: —What shameful words are these, Arjuna? This is the hour of trial. Why do you falter? Your despondent grief enfeebles you; it dishonors you. Slunk in the trenches of despair, you will win neither heaven nor earth. Do not exchange arrows and bow for impotence and cowardice; this is not your way. Do not yield to these faults or to this weakness. Rise up and fight!”

Arjuna said: —How can I fight them, immortal Krishna? These enemies are my teachers from earliest youth. How can I cut them down when they deserve only my veneration? It is better to wander in rags, begging for alms, than to sprinkle the bread of my sustenance with their blood.

… With these words, Arjuna cried out: —I will not fight! and said nothing more.

Krishna smiled, hinting of laughter, and spoke gently to Arjuna as they stood between the two armies. Krishna said: —Do not weep tears for them. Though your words are sincere and full of insight, your sorrow profits no one. Tears are wasted on the dead; the wise do not grieve for the living or the dead, for life and death shall pass away. —In time we have always been, both you and I and all these kings of men; and we will always be. Putting on the body of the child, the youth, the old man, a wise man does not wonder that in death, the Self passes into another body. … Even if you believe that a man is born again and again, and that he dies again and again, you should not grieve, for in death birth is inevitable and in birth death is inevitable. Being born, he must die. In death, he is reborn. If you understand this, then you will not grieve for the loss of what can never be lost.

Do your duty, Arjuna. Act without hesitation. For the warrior, the greatest good is lawful war against an evil enemy. A lawful war opens the doors of heaven for you. Enter therein, Arjuna. Rejoice in good fortune that this battle is joined. But if you shrink before this battle or turn your back upon your duty, casting aside honor, this is a grievous transgression. Men will recount your shame, dishonor, and disgrace now and in the future. They shall say cowards possess the courage of Arjuna. For one honored, the loss of honor is worse than death. Great warriors will accuse you of cowardice; those who once honored you will treat you with contempt. Your enemies will rejoice in mocking you. They will laugh and say, “See how Arjuna fled before us, a deer among lions.” Death in battle is better than the mocking derision of enemies. —If you are victorious, you gain glory in this world. If you are defeated and cut down on this field, you gain glory in the next world. Arise and fight, Arjuna. Glory is upon you. Be detached from happiness and unhappiness, gain or loss, victory or defeat. Be resolved to fight, or you will fall into error.

The pacifists have the right ideal, but in pursuing an ideal judgments must be made and sometimes the path to achievement will have some obstacles to overcome.

The seeker must ever realize that there is a time and place for all things.

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Consciousness

April 9, 2017March 4, 2019 Joseph Dewey

April 9, 2017

Consciousness

It is interesting that different belief systems have certain words that are acceptable and others that are not. Some even go so far as to accuse those of different beliefs as being evil, not because of any of their actions, but merely because of their choice of words.

There are different key words used by various Christian religions, but if we look at Christianity as a whole and new age thinking the difference becomes pretty pronounced. Now there is also a difference in shades of meaning between various new age and metaphysical groups, but not so pronounced as between the Christians and new age thinking.

One of the words that sends up a red flag for the standard Christian is “consciousness.” The standard thinking for them is that consciousness means merely being awake and if you use it for more than that you off into forbidden thinking. Now some new agers may throw the word around more than is needed and sometimes without much thought behind it, but they are indeed correct in their idea that there are various levels of consciousness. We will examine them, but for clarity’s sake let us first define the word.

Consciousness, especially in the context of this discussion, is the state of being awake or aware of certain things. One could say that the greater one’s consciousness is the greater will be his realm of awareness.

In this physical world we could assume that he who is well traveled will have a greater awareness, or consciousness, of the world than one who stays at home.

He who wears night vision goggles will have greater consciousness of the terrain than the one who does not have them.

When we apply consciousness to spiritual thinking we then shift awareness from the physical to the spiritual or that which us not seen by physical eyes.

Now the regular Christian believes that he is aware of God’s presence in his life, Jesus in his heart and the Holy Spirit so he would be factual in claiming that he has a higher consciousness in this area than the typical atheist. It is interesting that by definition most Christians could correctly use the term “higher consciousness,” but they shy away from it.

On the other hand metaphysical people correctly embrace the word. Here are various things that we can be aware of while in this human state.

(1) The emotional world. We are all aware of emotions, but some much more than others. Some can read emotions in others and know how to communicate well on an emotional level. Some have an empathic consciousness and can feel the emotions of others. In this category alone one can find several different states of consciousness.

(2) Love. Love stirs emotion but is in a world of its own. There are several different levels of love. There is selfish possessive love, romantic love and spiritual love all taking a different level of consciousness to fully understand.

(3) Mind and reason. Mind and thought is invisible but we all know it is there and again there are many different levels of using thought and reason. Stephen Hawking has a different state of consciousness theorizing about black holes than does the ditch digger waiting for the end of his shift. Our thinking takes us to many levels of conscious awareness.

(4) Creativity. One who writes music, novels, paints or performs will tap into a creative awareness of which many people are not aware.

(5) Higher vision. Some can see etheric and astral matter and can see auras, and sometimes spiritual beings. This increases the number of things of which they are conscious.

(6) Understanding. Every time our understanding increases so does our consciousness. Understanding merely opens the door to more conscious awareness.

(7) Intuition. Some can focus within and connect to the intuitive plane and obtain flashes of inspiration that will enhance his consciousness.

(8) The word of ideas. Some can bring down great and original ideas from a conscious state that many never attain.

(9) The Christ consciousness. This is a term often used by new agers yet shunned by most Christians. Ironically, it is the new agers who are being biblical here in following advice from Paul who said:

“Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus.” Phil 2:5

Also:

“To whom God would make known what is the riches of glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is CHRIST IN YOU, the hope of glory.” Col 1:28

If we follow Paul’s advice and have Christ in us as well as the same mind as Christ then we would indeed have the Christ consciousness.

There is spiritual internet out there that links up the minds of Christ and numerous spiritual brothers and sisters. All can share the mind and consciousness of Christ.

Indeed consciousness has many levels and applications and is a very positive word to use.

Evil Words

There are a number of other words used by people into metaphysics that seem to rub orthodox religious people the wrong way. Here are a few:

(1) Occult

This is a biggie as many Christians seem to equate this with the devil himself, but is this reasonable?

Not really. Occult merely means “hidden from view.” This is a common word used in astronomy when a planet passes in front of a star and hides it from view. The star is said to be “occulted,” or hidden.

Something mysterious that is not revealed or not understood by the masses is also said to be occult. The word is sometimes used in reference to astrology, palmistry, deep metaphysical writings, ceremonies and even scientific mysteries. One could say that the mysteries of creation, black holes and the theory of relativity is quite occult.

So, if this word has such a wide application then why do some orthodox Christians associate it with Satanism or the devil?

Interestingly, they rarely use it to attack real Satanists who probably do not use the word any more than the word “Bible.” Any group, good or bad must use thousands of different words. Single words do not make any group good or evil. One has to look at the whole of their teachings and actions. “By their fruits ye shall know them,” not by any individual words.

Because many metaphysical teachings are not understood, and thus hidden from the orthodox Christian the word ‘occult” is used by them in a positive way. Religionists therefore take the opportunity to demonize the word and the people who correctly use it.

Instead of taking this “evil by association” approach they should examine how the word is used in a case-by-case basis and see what the person is actually saying. Like any other word used in a context of a page of text the meaning can go many directions.

(2) Magic, white magic and black magic

Any use of the word “magic” in the supernatural sense is seen as something inspired by Satan according to many orthodox believers.

I think that most in the new age and metaphysical community would agree that any type of magic that causes harm to another to further selfish ambitions is on the dark path and would fit in with black magic.

Then there are gray areas where magical ceremonies are used to acquire wealth or fulfill personal desire but without intent to harm.

Some would call this black magic, but the practitioners just call it magic.

Then we get to more benevolent magic which is very similar to what standard religion calls “miracles.” Some call the work of benevolent miracles such as Jesus performed, “white magic.”

A rose is a rose by any other name so if one calls a miracle white magic , where is the rub? After all a miracle or white magic is merely a healing or event – the workings of which are beyond human understanding.

If someone is talking about white magic in a similar context to the Bible miracles then there is no case to associate such a person with the dark side.

(3) Karma

Many believers do not like this word, which seems to make their hair stand on end. As soon as they hear a person use this word in a positive way they will immediately associate him with the devil’s side of the fence.

This should not be the case as the meaning behind this word is expressed very clearly in the Bible:

“If a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself. But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another. For every man shall bear his own burden. Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things. Be not deceived; God is not mocked: FOR WHATSOEVER A MAN SOWETH, THAT SHALL HE ALSO REAP. for he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption (the resurrection of krisis or rebirth in mortality); but he that soweth to the spirit shall of the spirit reap life everlasting.” Gal 6:3-6.

Basically the law of karma is that we reap that which we sow. If that is an evil teaching then Paul who wrote Galatians had to have been evil also.

(4) New Age

This is another phrase that orthodox believers do not like and associate it with everything that is considered anti Christ.

Many who follow a metaphysical path are called new agers because they believe the old age is passing away and a new and better age of peace is coming.

The strange thing here is that Christians themselves are new agers, but just do not use the word. They are new agers because they claim to believe that we are approaching a new age of peace where Christ will rule on the earth.

After all their scriptures say:

“And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.” Revelation 21:5

“Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the days of old. Behold, I will do a NEW thing; now it shall spring forth….” (Isa 43:18-19)

Instead of calling the coming age of new things, the “new age,” they call it the millennium.

So both the new agers and the Christians believe in a coming new age of peace, but call it by a different name.

(5) Meditation

This word and practice is becoming more accepted all the time. Still there are quite a number of hardliners that believe the practice somehow takes people away from God. What they do not realize is that prayer itself is a form of meditation and creating plans for your life is another. Meditation can bring people closer to God rather than take them away.

The important thing here, when we look at beliefs that are different from our own, is to first understand exactly what those beliefs are. When the language barrier is crossed we may find that the gap may not be as great as imagined.

Distorted Words

Just as there are words that turn off standard Christian and religious believers there are also words that turn off people inclined toward metaphysics and esoteric philosophy.

There are two reasons for this.

The first is that many search out some type of alternative belief system because regular religion just placed a bad taste in their mouth.

The most common reason for this is that as a child religion was forced down their throats. Their parents dragged them to church and forced them to listen to the preacher and teachers. Some had religious parents who were strong disciplinarians and punished the kids in the name of the Lord.

Still others maybe tried out religion of their own free will and were turned off by hypocrisy.

Others like myself did not feel fed with the simple doctrines and wanted more.

Quote a few of the LGBT community do not feel at home or accepted in any orthodox religion and search for acceptance elsewhere.

The bottom line is that if one does not feel he is getting the highest spiritual food available he will sooner or later move on and look for greener pastures.

The second major problem alternative believers have with standard religion is their vocabulary. This is rarely pointed out, but it is indeed a factor in their alienation.

So, what are the words that turn off many and why would this be the case?

Here are some: Sin, repent, salvation, devil, demons, evil, redeem, judgment, forgive, holy – plus the way the Bible is presented in the King James with all the thees and thous, especially the “thou shalt nots.”

Overall the language used by the scriptures and the teachers seems too judgmental and holier than thou for many.

What I found interesting when I started checking into the original meanings of the Greek and Hebrew words from whence the Bible is translated is that many of the words conveyed quite a different meaning to those who lived in ancient times than they do now. I was delighted to find that the original meaning made a lot more sense and did not convey such a puritanical atmosphere.

Let us look at just three common religious sounding words.

(1) Sin

The word sin comes from the Greek word HAMARTANO which means “to miss the mark.” In other words when the Greeks, 2000 years ago, shot at a target with an arrow and missed they “sinned” (HAMARTANO) or missed the target. Is this how the word “sin” is used today? Verily no. When the religious person thinks of sin in our age, he generally thinks of being unclean and ridden with guilt.

Now when you shoot at a target and miss the bulls eye do you feel degraded and guilty to the extent that you feel paralyzed and even feel unworthy to shoot again? No, of course not. When you miss you may find it mildly irritating, but you generally can’t wait to have another try at it.

Guilt has been identified with sin by those who have sought to control the souls of men, but among the enlightened prophets it was not always so. To them sin was seen as a human error and salvation from sin is the path that leads to a correction of error. The prophets in times past did not seek to control through guilt, but sought to shift consciousness from error to perfection as they saw it.

(2) Salvation

So, what would salvation from sin mean in ancient times? Salvation comes from the Greek SOLTERIA which literally means “to rescue or deliver.” Therefore salvation from sin is really a deliverance from error.

If one is taught the truth about guilt and its cause and release and the person accepts this teaching as correction, then he is saved from sin or delivered from a great error in his thinking. In the old days many people believed that the world was flat. But when Columbus proved to them that it was round, it could be said that Columbus saved the world from its sin. In other words, he delivered (saved) the world from its error (sin) in thinking.

When it is said that Jesus was crucified for the sins of the world the truth is that the world made a grave error in crucifying him.

When it is written that Jesus saved the world from its sins, the meaning is simply that he left the teachings and example necessary to correct the world from its error in belief and thinking. Most people did not believe a man could rise from the dead. Jesus corrected this error by demonstrating power over death, thus he saved the world from sin in this matter.

(3) Repent

“Repent” is translated from the Greek word METANOEO which literally means “to exercise the mind to think differently, or to comprehend differently.” A new ager should not be turned off by this original word for it is similar in meaning to being told today to “raise your consciousness.”

If we wish to usher in the New Age we must indeed think and comprehend differently than we do. There must be a paradigm shift for humanity, Most importantly, we must accept responsibility for our own actions, and not wait for God to save us or to set things right.

We could go through all the common Bible words and explore their original meaning and discover that they had a different slant back then the way it is used today.

I’ve covered quite a few of these in my past writings for those who wish to explore.

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The Illusion of Obedience

April 8, 2017 Joseph Dewey

April 8, 2017

The Illusion of Obedience

In the LDS church as well as many other religions the most prominent idea presented is to obey God and keep his commandments. The idea is to become perfect as God is perfect by being strictly obedient to everything that comes down the pike.

There are several problems with this idea.

(1) A lot of the commandments, rules and traditions given out are commandments of men and have little to do with being in harmony with the will of God.

(2) It is almost impossible to be in perfect obedience to the demands of any religion. This creates a feeling of frustration, guilt and unworthiness for many decent people.

(3) Being perfectly obedient is often seen as the ultimate goal in life. This is a huge mistake, especially when obedience is to the commands decreed by some external human person and not the voice of God within. Even most of the obedience to the scriptures boils down to some authority’s interpretation of what it says that the flock is supposed to follow.

Then there are problems in attempting to strictly follow the scriptures. No one tried harder to be black and white about this then did the Jews in the days of Jesus who crucified him. That attitude did not serve them well.

The seeker really does not get a lot of benefit out of following the commandments of men though there is some. He gets a little self-control that he can use for other things. In addition, numerous commands gives him a little structure to his life that he may not have without them.

Some of the commands may help him be a better person. If a person has an addictive personality a command not to drink or smoke may give him a little extra incentive to not get out of control. It does take discipline to give money to a church, but how much good is accomplished by the donations? In most cases it would be more productive to hand the money out to the homeless on the streets.

Many of the commands such as to not steal, murder, lie, or commit adultery are obeyed by those who are not religious at all, just because they see it as the right thing to do.

The elephant in the room fact of the matter is that the basic ability to be obedient to a set of rules is just the first small step in our eternal progression. The goal behind obeying a set of moral instructions is to merely become a decent and caring person. This is not the end of our quest but only sets us up for the real beginning.

The scriptures teach that God is like a father and we are his children. Let us correspond this to our relationship with our children. When they are young we give them all sorts of commandments, or rules and expect obedience. If they obey they are considered good children and if not they are naughty and are usually given some sort of punishment.

BUT… this relationship does not continue forever. When they become adults rules from you are no longer necessary. Your guidance early on may make their adult life easier, but now they must move on to greater things.

When the kid leaves the nest the important thing for him to possess are skills and knowledge to be useful to society so he can be of service to his fellowmen and women.

Even so, when the churchgoer learns the basics through the schoolmaster of commandments and rules he must not rest on this achievement but onward move. Joseph Smith spoke truly when he said, “A man is saved no faster than he gets knowledge.” DHC 4:588

And what should we do with that knowledge?

“For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.

“Verily, I say, men should be anxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness; For the power is in them, wherein they are agents unto themselves. And inasmuch as men do good they shall in nowise lose their reward.”

D&C 58:26-28

Here we have two important things we must do that goes beyond standard obedience. We must gain knowledge and then apply this knowledge of our own free will in productive service.

Does this not sound a lot like what a child must do after he leaves home and strikes out on his own? The parent is no longer giving him commands, but expects him now to take his basic lessons, learn useful knowledge and accomplish something worthwhile.

Okay, let us say that you have learned the basics of regular religion, you’ve acquired what you can by practicing obedience for you are now approaching adulthood and see you must do things of your own free will to bring to pass much righteousness and good works.

Question: What are some of the steps that lie ahead for the seeker? What must he now accomplish?

Beyond Obedience

I ended a recent post with:

“Okay, let us say that you have learned the basics of regular religion, you’ve acquired what you can by practicing obedience for you are now approaching adulthood and see you must do things of your own free will to bring to pass much righteousness and good works.

“Question: What are some of the steps that lie ahead for the seeker? What must he now accomplish?”

We received an interesting assortment of answers such as establishing better soul contact, fine tuning virtues such as humility, independent thinking, self knowledge, balanced thinking, increasing love and will… These all head the disciple in the right direction.

Then the important word of “service” was brought up.

Why do you suppose the Higher Lives care and nurture us upon the path?

The whole idea is that we will progress to the extent that we can join them in the great Vineyard of the Lord and be of service to our fellow men and women. We can thus take some of the burden of the workload off the few who do useful spiritual service.

If we are to be useful servants what qualities must we develop? Here are a two.

(1) Make sure your labors are pointed in the right direction.

What good does it do to perform a lot of service if your labors support a work that does nothing to move the minds of people toward spirit?

Many who are willing to serve are merely obeying the commands of men who are substitutes for the inner voice of God. Their labors thus build up the kingdoms and the interests of selfish or deluded men rather than accomplishing something of real value.

The solution to this problem is establishing inner soul contact and getting confirmation that our labors are approved by the Spirit.

Okay, let us suppose you have freed yourself from the beast of outer authority. What is next?

Next you must labor in some work that has value to the progress of our fellow humans. This you can do as part of an established work that is endorsed by the inner voice or something self initiated.

How much value your labors will have will depend on the second thing that must be developed.

(2) Develop skills and talents so your labors can be effective and useful.

This is a point often overlooked by many seekers on the path. Many just want to obey some prophet or priest, have a spiritual experience and then wait to die and go to heaven.

That is not the path of true service. The valuable servant must make himself useful and develop some skills.

The parable of the talents teaches this idea. It is interesting that a talent in the days of Jesus was a sum of money, but the current meaning of the word is also appropriate. After all, we use our talents to make money in this world.

“For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods. And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

“Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents. And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two. But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord’s money.

“After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them. And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.

“His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

“He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.

“His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

“Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

“His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.” Matt 25:14-29

This parable reveals to us that Jesus expected a good servant to do more than seek to achieve salvation and then burry his talents, but we must expand on what we have so we can be useful.

Yes, the scriptures tell us that God will use the weak things of the world to confound the mighty and strong, but when we examine those who have made a difference we see that the weakness was an illusion. Jesus was considered no one of importance by the authorities when he started his work, but it turned out he was a man of great skill and ability.

Then his apostles were also considered very ordinary by those in power, but it turned out that they had enough talent to change the world.

Even so, we as aspiring servants must develop some skills so we can be useful in building the kingdom.

Question:

If you were God what kind of skills would you look for in choosing someone to carry out your work?

Becoming Useful

The Question:

If you were God what kind of skills would you look for in choosing someone to carry out your work?

If you were a general you would find it valuable to have a group of soldiers who respect you and are willing to carry out your orders, but a willingness to obey will only take you so far.

Of what use would your soldiers be if they had no skills, especially if you were up against an enemy with very talented soldiers?

You would need some of the following talent:

Good marksmen and sharpshooters.

Translators

Motivators

Pilots

Cooks

Mechanics

Code breakers

Strategists and much more.

To think that all God wants in his servants is obedience to his commands is a great error. What great intelligence is there who wants to be surrounded with a bunch of syrupy-eyed sycophants who do nothing but worship at your feet? I personally would run from such a crowd.

Yes, it is important to for any leader to have people at his disposal who are in alignment with his goals, but in addition to needing the willing he also needs the talented and the able.

So, what kind of talent is needed by those servants who seek to carry out the will of God? Quite a few things are helpful for the seeker to possess. Here are a few.

(1) He makes good use of his time.

I list this as number one because the development of just about every talent you can think of requires time, often at a sacrifice of some pleasure.

A disciple who claims to be willing and able to follow Higher Will yet uses his free time frivolously will not be of much use when needed.

(2) Communication skills

The fulfillment of Higher Will usually involves some type of message that needs to be communicated to the public. It is very helpful to have workers who can communicate that message accurately and as widely as possible.

(3) Writing ability

I could have included this with communication skills, but it is so important that it deserves a category of its own.

Because of the internet people are writing more than they ever have in history. We have available now more writings that are both good and bad than we could have imagined a few years ago.

Because there is so much material people’s attention span has diminished and good writing skill has become more important than ever, or else the text may never get read or just glossed over.

Of course, the first step to good writing is to get the basics of grammar down, but after that the most important thing a person can do is just write. Most successful writers are good because they have written a lot. Writing courses are always helpful but nothing beats practice.

Fortunately with Facebook and other mediums there is plenty of opportunity to practice. It is good practice to find interesting posts and comment on them in a thoughtful way or create a blog to post your thoughts.

Any writing skill that a seeker develops will follow him from life to life and prove useful in the vineyard of the Lord.

If not this life maybe the next you’ll write something revered as a work that elevated the spirits of humanity.

(4) Likeability and charisma.

People do not listen to or follow anyone that they do not personally like. The good thing is a pleasing personality can be acquired. Books like “How to Win Friends and Influence People” by Dale Carnegie are always useful tools for the seeker to absorb.

(5) Become self sufficient.

Being poor is greatly overrated. How many seekers do you know who really want to dedicate themselves to spiritual work, but cannot do so because they are worried about paying the bills? The answer is way too many. Financial worries are a tremendous distraction from spiritual work.

Unfortunately, a lot of seekers suffer financial distress because of a lack of talent or focus in earning a living. This sometimes demonstrates as a lack of talent in furthering a spiritual work.

A seeker should develop enough talent to be self sufficient in the world so worldly cares do not consumed him and distract him from some type of free will service with his spare time.

If a disciple’s main talent is making money then he can assist by donating to those workers with other talents. Money is an essential ingredient in furthering any movement, spiritual or otherwise and many good ideas die or stagnate for lack of financial support.

(6) Good health

Like financial distress, bad health can be a tremendous distraction from the spiritual work.

An important ability that each disciple should attempt to master are the laws of good health. Most people with good health did not acquire it by accident, but because they pay attention to their diet, got the needed exercise and practiced positive thinking, for energy follows thought.

I’ve read quite a few health books and it is amazing how many authors became interested in healthy living because of a life threatening illness earlier in life. Many of them tell stories of how they suffered intensely and were actually looking forward to death and something turned their life around.

Yes, the body you were born with and your karma has an effect, but in most cases the disciple can maintain good health if he gains and applies the knowledge that is readily available.

(7) Other

There are many other talents that can be put to use in spiritual service such as

Music

Public speaking

Acting

Finance

Mathematics

Computer related skills

Creative thinking

Building – construction – repair.

Manufacturing

The list could go on and on for many are the talents required by the various spiritual enterprises in order to elevate the planet into the new age.

***

A reader basically asked me why the good guys are not able to accomplish more despite making great attempts to use their talents.

As I have noted in the past the Brotherhood have given disciples too much help and this caused various movements to begin, but they turned out to be greatly flawed or outright failures. The decision now is to leave humanity on its own as much as possible. This is a slower process demanding more patience, but the results will be more positive and long lasting.

You’ll notice that in this present time the closer a teacher is to pure s spiritual truth the more difficult it is for him to make progress. Unless he gets supernatural help this will always be the case.

The task of true teachers at this point in time is to use all the talent they have to move the work ahead. If one path doesn’t work then he must use another and another until he finds something that does work. I get internal guidance from time to time but as far as figuring out what works in promoting my teachings I am on my own.

One of my recent changes was to post an original thought each day on Facebook. This is slowly gaining traction and seems to be worth continuing. Also coming to Facebook around a year ago was another change. This gives us more exposure than Yahoo Groups did.

So, in summary the basic answer is this. There is a solution to every problem. If what one is doing is not working, stop and analyze and ask yourself what changes can be made to become more successful? It is usually different for each individual.

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The Covenants of God

March 29, 2017 Joseph Dewey

March 29, 2017

The Covenants of God

There has been quite a bit of discussion as of late concerning covenants and God. The big question for the seeker is what does it have to do with him and what is one’s obligation for his part of the covenant? After all, the covenants mentioned in the scriptures are two way, are they not – like a marriage agreement?

Not exactly, and this is part of the problem with understanding covenants as taught in the scriptures. Some enterprising individual will teach about the covenants that God has made to us and then comes up with a list of promises in return that we are supposed to make back.

The problem with this return list is that it usually includes ideas that originated with fallible man and not God. Such promises to God often wind up being a means of controlling the people and have little to d o with reaping the benefits promised from a loving God.

To understand the covenants of God as related in the scriptures we must first understand what is meant when the word is used. First we need to clear up a common misunderstanding. I have heard it said in Sunday School that a covenant is a two way promise. God makes promises and then we make promises in return.

That is not really the case. A covenant from God in the scriptures is generally a one-way promise from Him to us.

There is no mention anywhere that I recall of us being required to make any promise back in return.

Here is a definite example of this:

Genesis 9:9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;

Genesis 9:10 And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth.

Genesis 9:11 And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.

Genesis 9:12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:

Genesis 9:13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.

So, this is a covenant that God made not only to humans, but to “every living creature” as well as the earth itself.

The non human living creatures were incapable of making any return promise to God.

This covenant, as most are, represent a one way promise from God to those receiving it.

One way to define God’s covenant is to merely say that it is God’s testimony, or His word concerning what he will do for us.

In the New Testament the word is translated from the Greek DIATHĒKĒ, which is sometimes translated as “testament” as in this verse.

“For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” Matt 26:28

“Testament” here is translated from DIATHĒKĒ, the word for covenant. In fact saying the words “Old and New Testament” is the same thing as saying “Old and New Covenant.” The Old Testament contains the promises or covenants of God to man before Christ and the New contains them after Christ.

Now the question arises that if God’s covenants are one way, as made in Noah’s time, does this mean there is no obligation on our part? Do we not have to pledge anything in return?

The answer is that we have to examine the covenants of God on a case by case basis to find out if humans have any responsibility and what that may be.

Here was the major covenant that God gave to Abraham:

“And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.” Genesis 22:18

Notice that God did not say to Abraham that he had to do anything to obtain this blessing. He had already done his part in that he obeyed the voice of God and having obeyed he obtained a promise of covenant of God.

And this is the general pattern concerning the promises or covenants of God. They are not determined by the people making promises that they may or may not keep, but by their actual actions and works. If the works are in harmony with Divine Will then God will give a promise as a reward, as he did with Abraham.

The New Testament speaks of the old covenant (testament) and the new. It tells us that the old with its strict laws and black and white rules no longer apply. Paul says:

Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar (Hagar).

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Here Paul tells us that Hagar and Sarah are an allegory representing the old and the new. Hagar was a slave and Sarah was free. Similarly, the covenant under Moses brought bondage, but under Christ we are free without the need of all the black and white laws.

And why is this?

Heb 8:8 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Here we are told that Christ opened the door to new unbounded promises of God and those who take upon themselves the name of Christ will not need to sign any contract or give any oath, but will have the laws written in their minds and hearts. The sincere followers of Christ will know what to do to please God without hearing some preacher telling him how to “know the Lord.”

That said, aren’t we supposed to make a covenant, or promise to God, at baptism?

Not really. Rather than being a symbol of an oath, baptism is a symbol of an inner change which was supposed to have already taken place.

Jesus set the example here. He did not take any covenant to make a change when he was baptized, but he was already spiritually born again. The baptism was merely a sign of what has already occurred.

Paul said:

“But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” Gal 3:25-29

Notice the wording here. Those who have been truly baptized have already “put on Christ.” No covenant or oath is necessary. The schoolmaster of any past oaths to God are supposed to have already had their effect and the disciple merely acknowledges his new birth with the outward ordinance.

The inward change is what is essential for salvation, not the outward as noted here:

“Wherefore, although a man should be baptized an hundred times it availeth him nothing, for you cannot enter in at the strait gate by the law of Moses, neither by your dead works.” D&C 22:2

Moroni sheds some additional light on this:

“For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing.” Moroni 8:22

Basically, the physical act of baptism is a sign and symbol of a spiritual rebirth that should have already transpired in the seeker. When the outer sign matches the inner change the seeker may have an additional spiritual experience. This happened to Jesus when the Spirit descended upon him and he heard the approving voice of God at John’s baptism.

Some may assume that the prophets and their people often made covenants to God, but such has not been demanded in the scriptures. Instead, God makes His promise to us and tells us the conditions that must be met to receive the benefits. That usually requires correct action on our part, not promises, for promises are often not kept.

It is interesting to consider that the great disciple Peter gave the strongest promise or oath in all the Bible. When Jesus told them

of his upcoming death Peter said:

“Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended. Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. Peter said unto him, Though I should die with thee, yet will I not deny thee. Likewise also said all the disciples.” Matt 26:33-35

Luke gives the promise of Peter in even stronger terms:

“And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.” Luke 22:33

We all knew what happened. Within a few hours Peter broke his oath.

As unreliable as oath taking is, is it any wonder that Jesus spoke against it:

“Again, you have learned that our forefathers were told, “Do not break your oath”, and, “Oaths sworn to the Lord must be kept.” But what I tell you is this: You are not to swear at all—not by heaven, for it is God’s throne, nor by earth, for it is his footstool, nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King, nor by your own head, because you cannot turn one hair of it white or black. Plain “Yes” or “No” is all you need to say; anything beyond that comes from the devil.” Matt 5:33-37 New English Version

There are two examples in the Book of Mormon where human covenants are presented in a positive light. The first is King Benjamin and his people. The people came to the king and expressed a desire to commit themselves to following the commandments of God. There was no written oath, but merely and expressed commitment from the people done of their own initiative. It was beyond anything that was demanded.

The same situation occurred with the people of Ammon who made an oath to not shed blood. They basically became conscientious objectors.

This was an oath they took upon themselves of their own initiative – not by way of any commandment from God – as many righteous men did not take the oath.

On the other hand, many oaths in the scriptures are obviously dark and harmful. In the Book of Acts we read of a group of Jews who hated Paul so much that they took an oath to neither eat or drink until they killed him.

Since they were not successful I would guess that most of them broke their oath and ate and drank again.

Negative oaths were a great curse to the people in the Book of Mormon. Concerning the oaths of the Gadianton Robbers it is written:

“And it came to pass that they did have their signs, yea, their secret signs, and their secret words; and this that they might distinguish a brother who had entered into the covenant, that whatsoever wickedness his brother should do he should not be injured by his brother, nor by those who did belong to his band, who had taken this covenant.

“And thus they might murder, and plunder, and steal, and commit whoredoms and all manner of wickedness, contrary to the laws of their country and also the laws of their God.

“And whosoever of those who belonged to their band should reveal unto the world of their wickedness and their abominations, should be tried, not according to the laws of their country, but according to the laws of their wickedness, which had been given by Gadianton and Kishkumen.

“Now behold, it is these secret oaths and covenants which Alma commanded his son should not go forth unto the world, lest they should be a means of bringing down the people unto destruction.” Hellman 6:22-25

Even though the LDS had the book of Mormon as a warning these powerful controlling oaths crept into the early Mormon church though an organization called the Danites.

Then many also believe these oaths made their way into the temple ordinances that millions still hold sacred. The current church has altered the worst of them to make them more palatable.

Solomon tells us that there is a time ad place for all things and there are some circumstances that demand strong commitments. For instance, during World War II the good guys had to make some commitments of secrecy to win the war. A marriage agreement demands a commitment from both parties. A business may place an employee under contract to not reveal its secrets.

The disciple must be very careful of the commitments he makes as the broken word hinders the seeker’s spiritual progress. This is why God merely gives us his promise and lets us decide the best way to fulfill our part in reaping the benefit by seeking the law written within our own hearts.

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Immortals and David Whitmer

March 20, 2017 Joseph Dewey

Immortals and David Whitmer

Examining Fantastic Claims

Some consider it a waste of time to examine various teachings that come from unorthodox sources. Granted that most such teachings are far from being 100% true and many of them employ some type of deception, but all of them provide fodder for spiritual exercise that can strengthen the seekers power to perceive real truth.

There are a number of different type of clams to higher contact.

The most common is some type of channeling, usually using direct voice. These channelers will claim to be speaking for a disembodied spirit, a master, God, Jesus or perhaps a space alien.

Some channeled material is fairly impressive and definitely contains some truth and a lot of other is mumbo jumbo.

A second method is mental telepathy where the subject receives messages while in full consciousness with no other being taking over the body or vocal cords.

Some very high quality material has been received this way.

A third is by inspiration/revelation from God or one’s Higher Self.

A Fourth is through visions of some kind where the subject actually sees things and tells us about them.

The fifth and the rarest is through a personal visitation by an immortal in a physical body. This is by far the rarest claim of them all. When such a claim is made it usually involves only one or two visitors and not with much frequency.

The other thing about this claim is that it is pretty black and white. All other sources of revelation can be written off by skeptics as some type of delusion, but a physical presence that you touch and feel is either something has happened or did not.

The person making such a claim should definitely know if his encounter really happened – unless he is under some type of strong delusion or illness.

David Whitmer, descendent of the Book of Mormon witness, makes a claim of physical visitations from more immortals, more frequently than any person I know about in history.

Moses only saw one immortal – Jehovah. It is recorded that Jesus saw two on the Mount of Transfiguration. Joseph Smith recorded seeing some on at least three occasions, but this guy has them all beat. In response to the question as to whether he actually touched Jesus’ physical body he said:

“Many times. Almost daily for a little over a 7-month period when He was my father. Every day, He would come and get me and take me places. He took me out to the Great Salt Lake and he baptized me in the Great Salt Lake. He confirmed me into the Church of the First Born.”

The question that comes to my mind is why would Jesus, who most of us would assume is a very busy guy, spend time almost every day taking this guy places and visiting with him? After all, there are billions of souls under his stewardship. If he is confined to one resurrected body then you would think that there would be some really great cause involved. As it turns out David Whitmer died in obscurity, far from accomplishing a mission like Moses or Elijah.

Then we find that Jesus was just one of the immortals visiting him. He says,

“I met Moroni, the brother of Jared, seven different Jaredites, about six or so Nephites, including Moroni, two of the three Nephites that are translated. All of them gave me different things, different things to do with the patriarchal Priesthood and what I need to do just for my family. Joseph Smith and Joseph Smith Sr. came and that was the first time I actually saw the Lord in person and not just in a vision. They ordained me to what they called a probationary Patriarchal Priesthood and then sealed me as a son to Joseph Smith Sr.

“I was baptized by John the Baptist into the Church of Christ.”

“I was baptized by Joseph Smith Sr. into the Church of Christ and confirmed in the Church of Christ. I was baptized by Joseph Smith Jr. and it happened to be in the baptismal font of the temple in the city of Enoch.

“I was baptized and confirmed into the Church of Enoch. Joseph Smith Sr. is the one who confirmed me. Joseph Smith Jr. baptized me directly, in person as a resurrected being.”

It appears that immortals were lining up just to befriend this guy. Overall he said he was baptized 38 times. Seems like overkill and why would he have to be taken to the City of Enoch to be baptized? It looks like he was baptized twice into the church of Christ – once by John the Baptist and once by Joseph Smith Sr.

When I come in contact with a person who claims to be speaking for supernatural beings I consider it a red flag when they claim to be speaking for a half dozen famous characters. Usually the quality of their material is no higher than they could write themselves.

Now this guy comes across as kind of rough around the edges. The only picture I have seen of him has him wearing a cowboy hat. He looks like a fairly simple farmer or handyman. He was a carpenter by trade.

Now, I do not write anyone off because they may seem ordinary, as the scriptures tell us that God will work through “the weak things of the world,” to accomplish his work.

You get the feeling when reading his words that he is a simple man and at least he believes that what he is saying is true. The big question is whether or not he was deceived wholly or in part.

Perhaps the biggest drawback for his claim is the lack of witnesses. The scriptures tell us that all things should be established by two or more witnesses. There seems to be no witness to all these spiritual events except himself alone.

The big test for me is not the claim of authority or contact, but the teachings themselves.

The interesting thing about Whitmer is that he has come up with some provocative teachings that are beyond the mind of the average farmer to conjure up. Though it is notable that his obituary quotes friends as saying he was a great storyteller.

In my next installment we’ll look at his teachings objectively and see how much sense they make before I give my final conclusion.

If you missed Whitmer’s interviews check them out here:

LINK1 LINK2

An Apocalyptic Prediction

The first interesting thing David Whitmer talks about is that most of Utah will sink as if into a great sink hole causing the Salt Lake to flood the Salt Lake City area. He saw just the spires of the temple sticking above the water. He says he talked to a geologist friend who told him that there was a great hollow area 300 feet thick under the Salt Lake Valley. If this is correct it adds some credibility to his vision, though I cannot find any viable information on this.

The trouble with this is that I know of no one who has received a second witness to this though there have been visions of flooding and destruction recorded. Because the scripture says that God’s judgments will begin at his own house many have set in their minds that the Salt Lake area is going to suffer a lot of destruction . Maybe this is why so many have visions about it, though they all differ somewhat.

A popular one of recent times is recorded in the book “Visions of Glory.” He saw that we were invaded by foreign armies and shortly after that there was a great earthquake that brought flooding and destruction to Salt Lake, thought not as great as seen by Whitmer. Also this guy saw the flooding was from fresh water not from the Great Salt Lake as in the Whitmer vision.

Then, after this an even greater selling LDS related book by Julie Rowe was published. She saw great destruction hitting Utah, but it seemed to come from a foreign attack followed in vision by foreign troops.

The only thing all these visions have in common is that Utah, especially Salt Lake, is headed for great destruction, as a sign of the cleansing of the church or in preparation for Zion.

Which one are we to believe? I do not recall Visions of Glory setting a date, but Julie Rowe set some that did not materialize. Also Whitmer’s statements sound as if he would be here participating in the event, but he died in 2014 so that will not happen

I would say that if great destruction as some type of Divine act were to occur that first there must be a warning given to the church. I wouldn’t expect a great devastation like those predicted unless we first hear a significant warning voice.

Yes, I know that at any given time that there are a few fundamentalists warning the leaders of the church of destruction, but few ever hear of them. This warning would have to be loud and clear with the general membership being aware of it.

Neither Julie Rowe, the anonymous author of Visions of Glory, or David Whitmer warned the general authorities, for they did not consider them out of order.

I think it is entirely possible that some type of destruction will come to Salt Lake and other parts of the country, but not sure of the timeline or exactly how it will happen. I’ve always felt I (and others) would receive some type of message if something were of imminent concern. So far that has not happened.

The problem with predictions of destruction is that many false ones come to the minds of seekers because of a misreading of the Book of Revelations and other scriptures. Because of this, for every prediction of doom that comes true, there are dozens that do not – and none of the big doomsday ones have materialized yet.

Visit by an Angel

Next was an interesting account of an angel telling him to request his ancestor’s (David Whitmer, of Joseph Smith’s time) Patriarchal blessing. Then it turns out that the angel was the original David Whitmer.

It is no secret that David Whitmer did receive a blessing from Joseph Smith Sr. as this knowledge is published on the web. Here is the LINK

It appears that a copy is available for the public for the site says:

“Copies of the manuscript and transcripts exist for the blessings of the following people” and then David Whitmer’s name is in the list.

Whitmer probably knew his grandfather had a blessing and wanted a copy, with or without an angel telling him. He most probably felt a nudging of some kind to go ask for it.

He says the First Presidency didn’t want a copy released but it looks like a copy is presently available.

If it is not really available perhaps it is because (according to the angel) it said this:

“David Whitmer, had been given all of the keys for the gathering of Israel in Jackson county for the building up of the temple.”

Apparently, the authorities did not want this out because they figure they have all the keys. Also it looks like the prophecy failed as Whitmer never gathered Israel nor built a temple in Jackson County.

On the other hand, there is available a blessing given to him by Joseph Smith Jr that is about as controversial. Here it is:

“Blessed of the Lord is brother David [Whitmer], for he truly is a faithful friend to mankind, and he should be beloved by all, because of the integrity of his heart. All his words are as steadfast as the pillars of heaven, because truth is his only meditation, and he delighteth in it, and shall rejoice in it forever. The Lord God of Abraham, of Isaac and of Jacob, shall be on his right hand and on his left, and shall go before his face, and shall be his rear ward, and his enemies shall become an easy pray unto him; for behold, he it is, whom the Lord hath appointed to be captain of his host, under the guidance and direction of him who is appointed to say unto the strength of the Lord’s house, Go forth and build up the waste places of Zion. A mighty shaft shall he be in the quiver of the Almighty in bringing about the redemption of Zion, and in avenging the wrongs of the innocent. He shall yet stand upon the land of Zion, from whence he has been driven, and shall find inheritance there; and shall be a ruler in Zion until he is old and well stricken in years. And shall enjoy an abundance of the precious things of the lasting mountains, and shall have part with his brethren in all the good things of this earth, and shall never want a friend. He shall bring down his adversaries under his feet, and shall walk upon their ashes when their names are blotted out. His name shall be a blessing among all nations, and his testimony shall shine as fair as the sun, and as a diamond it shall remain untarnished. There shall not be a spot upon his character while he lives, neither upon his seed after him unto the latest posterity: he shall not be forsaken nor his seed found begging bread. Amen.”

Oliver Cowdery, Clerk and Recorder.

Given like the foregoing blessings, by vision, to Joseph Smith, jr. the Seer, September 22, 1835, and recorded Oct. 2, 1835. [p. 14]

There’s quite a bit there that did not materialize in Whitmer’s lifetime that could also have been embarrassing to the church.

If grandfather Whitmer is to gather the saints in Jackson County it looks like the only way that will happen is if he is born again in the flesh and currently no one alive seems to be claiming to be that guy.

Whitmer on Reincarnation

Whitmer says this about reincarnation:

“There are multiple mortalities. If they came down and rode around on their motorcycle and didn’t do what they were supposed to they might have to do it again. I don’t want to open up a whole can of worms on that either.”

Then in the other interview when asked about it he kind of backtracked and said:

“A lot of people I’ve run into can remember past lives. What I’ve found is that they’re remembering being a guardian angel for someone else and all of their memories are that person’s life. It’s not them living the life; it was them being a guardian angel or in charge of someone else’s life so that they could record it and that’s where their memories are coming from that I’ve personally run into.”

Though it is possible to tune into the past lives of others if there is some genuine need for it, most past life memories belong to the person. Using regression techniques many (including myself) have taken people back to past lives where they can relive them in real time. When this real time regression takes place the subject does not see that life from a distance as if he were an angel looking in on someone here on the earth, but as an actual participant. I have had people speak ancient languages and correct accents from the past ages.

Subjects regressed to the period between lives report having a guardian angel who they usually call a guide who also assists them in the spirit world.. This being is usually further up the ladder of spiritual progression than themselves and all of them are fairly advanced in knowledge. I do not know of any regressionists reporting that past lives memories come from guides. There are reports of sharing past life memories in preparation for a future earth life.

When Whitmer does acknowledge reincarnation he seems to imply that it just happens to some people.

The truth is that all of us have lived many past lives and most of us will have many more to come.

Visualize the day Bill Murray lived over and over in Groundhog Day as being one life. Just as he had to live that day over many times to finally get it right and obtain liberation from the cycle – even so must we live a life over and over until we get it right. Unlike Groundhog Day though, each life gives us a new situation with new challenges.

Women and the Pristhood

Whitmer says this about women and the priesthood.

“Women don’t need the Priesthood because they already serve others, they already know how so they don’t need to learn it. On the Melchizedek level the woman share in the Priesthood with their husbands, but they don’t need their husband there to do it. They can anoint with oil, they can bless,

“It wasn’t that the men had the Priesthood and the women had nothing. It’s that the women didn’t need to have it because they didn’t have the natural man’s instincts of “me first.”

“The wife will always give that to any kid. They’ll even give the best steak to their husband, won’t they? Naturally, that’s because they already know how to serve others. Men have to learn that so they’re given the Priesthood in order to put a harness on them and make them do it.”

This is an explanation that taps into the Mormon thoughtform, but it doesn’t present the whole truth.

The only truth he is seeing here is that there is a difference between males and females.

The real difference is in their polarization of energy, not in their spiritual evolution or spiritual qualities.

All of us have known men who are giving and willing to serve as well as generous and women who you want to avoid like the plague, and vice versa.

The truth is that men and women, as a whole, are about the same in spiritual evolution and qualities. If you are a man and feel superior then how will you feel when you incarnate as a female in a future life? We all incarnate in both male and female bodies. Without going through both the male and the female experience we would wind up with a major gap in our final knowledge and understanding.

Those men who mistreat women and see them as inferior are likely to reincarnate into a religion where they have few rights and are a plural wife. This will be their sentence to hell.

The real difference between male and female is the energy. There are two energies in the universe and they are called by many different names such as, male/female, positive/negative, yin/yang etc.

The basic difference between them is one is a sending energy and the other a receiving one.

Now all of us have both energies within us but those in a male body generally have more of an impulse to send than receive and those in a female body have more of an impulse to receive than to send.

We see this comically playing out when a couple gets lost. The female wants to stop and ask directions (receiving) but the male resists receiving and wants to send them off to a few more turns in an attempt to find their bearings.

Because the male half has the impulse to send they have engineered society in the past so their sex has dominated in leadership positions in both politics and religion.

That is changing as society as a whole has evolved and people of today realize the virtues of both sexes and that we all have some of the two impulses within us.

In a just society sending and receiving will not be dictated to in black and white terms, but the males will take the opportunity to receive as feels right and the females will have their opportunity to send as seems good to them.

In a spirit of freedom and opportunity both sexes will be happy in their energy but will sometimes venture out of it to obtain balance.

Twin Souls

He teaches that we were born as spirits though the result of regular sexual intercourse. He says:

“You are born as a male and a female at the same time. It just happens that the male comes out first and he holds the hand of the female When you come out and now you are twins. A brother and a sister as full twins.”

This twin soul, (also called twin flames) idea is unusual in Mormon circles but very popular in the New Age community.

What is popular in many belief systems is the idea of a soul mate, for the soul mate is seen as almost like a twin in that this person will understand you and love you like you do yourself.

Many there are who in their single years look far and wide for their twin soul or soul mate. Then after they settle in with marriage many figure they got the wrong one. There are a lucky few who feel they found their one and only.

What is the truth here?

Paul gives us a hint when he says, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.” Gal 3:28

We are not conceived and then born into the world of spirits through sexual intercourse and physical birth as happens here on the earth. The process takes places through an interplay of spiritual sending and receiving energies manipulated by the thought of very advanced beings. The spirits are not male or female in form unless they want to assume such a form for some reason. Compared to us here on earth they are “neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus,” as Paul says.

That said, there is a principle of differentiation involved here in that nothing is completely neutral. Even in this state there is in each entity an inclination towards male or female, though in the spirit world it is very slight compared to the strong impulses we have here on earth.

So why is this strong feeling in many that they have a soul mate or twin soul out there?

The answer is that in the spirit world before birth we belonged in a certain soul group, or family where there were others that we loved very much who were vary similar to ourselves. The members of a soul group are in a similar state of spiritual evolution and share a powerful sense of belonging together. There will be one that you are closest to and when you meet that one on the earth you will feel like you have found your soul mate. When you meet any member of your soul group there will be sparks and the relationship on earth will be very intense.

If you marry a member of your soul group there will be great passion, but the marriage may still have problems. Often there is still much to learn for both members when they meet on the earth.

Symbolic Scriptures

Whitmer teaches that a number of the scriptures are symbolic in meaning. Concerning the Second coming he says:

“The Second coming of the Lord is just talking about the spirit of you coming forth and taking over.”

He also says this:

“If you say the earth itself has to go under a big cleansing change now to get ready for the coming of the Lord, they’re not talking about the earth they’re talking about your body. Get it ready. Get it cleansed. It’s going to have to have earthquakes, it’s going to have to have tornadoes in it to get out all the parts. All the earth is a symbol representing what has to happen to your body.”

The coming of Christ in us is similar to many new age teachings that the Second Coming represents the Christ Consciousness within us becoming manifest. Interestingly this does have some scriptural support:

“To whom God would make known what is the riches of glory of this MYSTERY among the Gentiles: which is CHRIST IN YOU, the hope of glory.” Col 1:28

“LET THIS MIND BE IN YOU WHICH WAS ALSO IN CHRIST JESUS: who being in the form of God, thought it not mockery to be EQUAL WITH GOD: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men…” Phil 2:5-7 “…That the life of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.” II Cor 4:10

So the scriptures do support the idea of Christ manifesting in us, but it doesn’t specifically relate this occurrence to the prophesied Second Coming.

I have taught that there are several stages to his coming and the manifestation and popularization of the Christ consciousness is stage one. We are currently in the midst of this stage as many now believe that we are to manifest the Christ in us in some way.

On the other hand, I have taught that the actual Second Coming is more than symbolic and the entity who is Christ will manifest again in the flesh, though not quite in the way that the churches teach. Some of the scriptures relating this event are symbolic.

Then again at another time Whitmer sees a more orthodox Second Coming where Christ appears and destroys the wicked.

Whitmer teaches that much of the Book of Revelations is symbolic. He says

“There are seven churches in there that they talk about; Ephesus, Smyrna, Thyatira (see Revelation chapter 1:11). All they represent is the seven levels you personally have to go through getting into the presence of God. There is the Church of the setting in Order, that is the first one. The Church of the Restoration, the Church of Christ, the Church of Noah, the Church of Abraham, the Church of Enoch, and then the Church of the Firstborn.”

This is in harmony with what I have taught about the seven churches which, in my book The Unveiling, I present as seven stages the disciple must go though on the path to become like Christ. I present them as stages of consciousness rather than churches which seems an odd way to teach it to me. Whitmer says nothing about some of these stages so there is not a lot to comment on here.

On the other hand, he does make a quite literal use of the number 144,000. He says that the Father of Jesus presides over 144,000 other Fathers and the 144,000 represents the firstborn of each of these Fathers. Then each one of these need to find 144,000 more sons. Strange doctrine which didn’t resonate with me as he presented it.

Then he takes symbolism further by stating:

“No, none of the outward ordinances are (necessary); they’re just representative of what you have to go do. They’re all the Aaronic level. When someone doesn’t do what God wants them to do, personally, then He gives them something to do just to keep them busy.

“The worse the people become the more rules you end up with. If you go down to the prison and you are really a bad guy, they will let you know when you wake up, when you go to sleep, how you dress, when you eat, and everything in your life is controlled. That is no different than the Jews became when Jesus .was in Jerusalem when he was growing up.”

This is pretty much in harmony with my teachings which present the ordinances as symbols of what we must attain in our own consciousness. In addition to this I have taught that ordinances communicate a message to our inner self and do have the benefit in that they may stimulate us into faster progression.

Blind Obedience

A teaching he gives that will be controversial to many is comparing the good disciple to a good horse or animal. The trained animal does what it is told without asking questions. Whitmer says we must do the same thing whenever we receive something from God.

It does make sense that God has a higher intelligence than us and his will, will take us in a more intelligent direction than our own.

The trouble is that not all communications people receive are from God so it is good to question. In fact Moses questioned Jehovah while he was in his presence. He didn’t agree with his plan to destroy the Israelites and start all over and talked God into changing his mind.

If Moses can question God I would suppose that it is acceptable for the disciple to question a revelation that may seem illogical.

Fortunately, for the disciple, most revelations come with additional light so the seeker can understand why the answer is correct – though there are rare exceptions.

Three Levels of Priesthood

Whitmer talks quite a bit about the various grades of priesthood, but his comments on them are scattered and not presented in any methodical way. After reading through his writings a couple of times here is what I have pieced together concerning his belief on the subject.

There are three priesthoods which are the Aaronic, the Melchizedek and the Patriarchal.

The Aaronic governs the church on a telestial level with a little Melchizedek thrown in. This is the level of priesthood governing the present LDS church which does “physical things like preparing the sacrament, passing the sacrament, they go home teaching, they go to the stake farm…” When he was asked about necessary ordinances he said:

“none of the outward ordinances are; they’re just representative of what you have to go do. They’re all the Aaronic level.”

This level merely deals with outer work to keep the people busy so they can feel like they are accomplishing something. This is basically service for the sake of salvation of self.

His teachings here seem somewhat contradictory because he says he has been administered the outward ordinance of baptism 38 different times. He says he was baptized into the church of Christ by John the Baptist, and then into the church of Enoch, in the city of Enoch itself, by Joseph Smith and finally in the Salt Lake into the Celestial Patriarchal order by Jesus himself.

It really sounds like the outward ordinance of baptism goes way beyond the low telestial/Aaronic order. In addition he says he’s done temple ordinances in the celestial Church of the Firstborn.

The next order up is the Melchizedek. This is after the order of Enoch, or a terrestrial order and is dedicated to the service of others. In one place he says that Joseph Smith presides over this order and then in another he says it is Jesus.

He says that women can hold the priesthood at this level as well as the men.

The highest priesthood he calls Patriarchal. This is basically government over a family unite and is the priesthood used by celestial beings including God. This is a celestial order that also governs the Church of the Firstborn. Apparently it is called the Church of the Firstborn because of a rather elaborate system of birth order in heaven. The little he said about it didn’t make much sense to me.

Those who practice this priesthood on the earth exercise government within their families beyond the control of any church system. He didn’t explain though how his family used this priesthood to govern their family in a way a good non Mormon family does not. What would be the difference?

One could say that since we are all children of God that we are indeed all a part of a great family in the spiritual worlds. However, when we are talking about billions of beings the organization becomes more complex than that of a mother and father governing the family of three kids.

There are many divisions of this great family with many different types of groups involving many different numbers other than 144,000.

Joseph Smith Said that the Melchizedek Priesthood was “after the holiest order of God,” so one would think that would be the highest. He says it is “the key of the knowledge of God.” D&C 84:18-19

This statement is a key to deciphering what the real priesthood is in the higher spheres. Those who have the keys of knowledge have access to the powers of godliness and thus have the power of God or the highest priesthood.

We scratch the surface of obtaining knowledge in this material world, but those who do gain a foothold in obtaining true authority will be recognized by the souls of the pure in heart who encounter them.

I was asked how to respond to LDS members who claim extraordinary powers of the priesthood.

Priesthood in the church is essentially church government and just as those in our U.S. government place strong emphasis in the authority of the three branches so does the church place much emphasis on the branches of the priesthood – which is merely the government of the church.

For those who claim the priesthood gives them the power of God beyond human designated positions, issue them this challenge.

What can you do with priesthood that I can’t do with my non priesthood?

The answer is nothing that can be demonstrated.

Plural Marriage

I agree with Whitmer’s views on plural marriage, which run contrary to many disenfranchised from the LDS church. Many of these fundamentalist groups and people advocate the doctrine and some view it essential to enter the highest kingdom.

Whitmer sees the practice as a tyranny toward women where they are placed in a situation where the man is the boss and the females are the servants, often commanded to obey.

He says the true plural marriage of a celestial order is represented by Christ and the church. The scriptures call Christ the bridegroom and the members (who are many) the bride.

That is definitely plural marriage of a large order, since Jesus has billions of followers worldwide.

I think these are good points. Plural marriage as practiced in the days of Brigham Young and by current fundamentalists is very repressive for females. This especially difficult for them when a supposed authority from God is used to control them.

It would be much less harmful if people entered into plural marriage of their own free will with no threat of damnation involved and with complete freedom to withdraw at any time. In that case, if they see a mistake is made it is fairly easy to correct, but if one is afraid of hellfire she may be frightened into submission.

He could have expanded the concept of Jesus taking us as plural wives as follows:

Since our goal is to become like Christ then when we take upon ourselves his name we will seek to share what we have with others. Those who accept the sharing become female to the teacher and thus symbolic plural wives.

He says that Satan places himself and his helpers in the place of God over men.

This agrees with my teachings on the beast of Revelation and it is an important piece of knowledge to apply.

Overall he seems to support the Principle of Freedom which differentiates the light from he dark. He sees the Patriarchal order as freeing up people from the dominion of rule by men who take the place of God.

He sees Satan’s method as commanding us to do what we are told, “or else.” He sees God as a father who offers guidance and lets us choose without a threat hanging over our heads.

Satanic Verses

This leads to a very unusual approach to the scriptures by him as many of them contain statements that we are supposed to do certain things, “or else.”

He said that Joseph Smith (and I assume other prophets) even when they had contact with the voice of God and were writing scripture inserted text from Satan. He says that what happened during numerous revelations received by Joseph Smith is he stopped to think about what he was receiving and this opened him up to receiving false doctrine from the wrong source. Thus we have to read the scriptures by the spirit or we will be deceived. He said this:

“…go read the D&C and find out. Take a highlighter, a yellow one and a pink one. If you can tell that’s coming from the Father – if it’s love, forgiveness, and it deals with the law of the harvest – do it yellow. When you run onto something saying, “You either do this-or else.” Start doing pink. You can be right in mid-sentence when all of a sudden it will switch back.”

He started this process with the scriptures so he could have an undefiled book, but never finished.

I agree that no man is infallible and we need to consider all things through the light of the Spirit and pure reason. Even the purest of words can be interpreted incorrectly if the receiver filters through eyes of illusion and lower desire.

He makes this odd statement about the Sealed Portion:

“What the sealed portion of the gold plates are, are ramblings about the Patriarchal order.”

The Book of Mormon says the Sealed Portion is about the history of the world from the beginning, so I would assume it contains more than ramblings.

Here is another unusual one:

“When you get your calling and election you have to pay for your own sins.”

Unlike many who claim contact with God he did not focus on future dates. He said he didn’t know when the great destruction of Utah would take place, though he seemed to assume he and his family would be here when that happened. He did talk about three men “sealing Temple Square for the return of the saints in seven years,” which would be 2002. Not sure what he meant by the return of the saints, but nothing unusual happened about saints returning as far as I know.

Final Assessment

I think that Whitmer had some inspiration that filtered down through his belief system, but I am far from convinced his words are literally true.

Unfortunately we only have two transcripts of his words so we do not have a lot to go on to assess the man, but there are a few things.

As he begins speaking in the first document, he centers his words around himself talking about what a successful missionary he was. The only reason to throw this in is to alert the listener to what a special person he is.

This may seem like a small thing, but every deluded prophet has a big ego so a large ego is the first flaw one needs to look for in examining claims.

Another common one is in exaggerated claims. There are a couple not related to the supernatural that I question.

First he says that during his mission he taught 112 people and baptized 112. In other words, he has a 100% success rate. This sounds about as hard to believe as his claim that Joseph Smith baptized him in the City of Enoch.

I had more success than most on my mission and probably baptized about a third of the people I taught. For a lot of missionaries it was around 10%. The only way for anyone to achieve 100% would be to tie them up and drag them into the water.

Then he says they instantly converted a hardened atheist with an IQ of 200 to God by pointing out that a watch had to have a watchmaker and us humans who are more complicated would also need a creator.

I think every atheist on the planet has already heard this argument and it doesn’t convince them. There has to be more to this story.

Another claim that may be exaggerated is his statement that his nine children have their calling and election made sure. He says, “They’ve had visitations, ministering of angels.”

I would suppose these children are still alive. It would be interesting to check with them to see if they all have really seen the risen Lord.

These things that sound like exaggerations make me suspect that his supernatural events have been exaggerated. After all, this man claims to have had more visitations and spent more time with immortals than all the prophets of the Bible combined.

He has not only seen Jesus and God the Father, but Moroni, the brother of Jared, seven different Jaredites, about six or so Nephites, all three Nephites that were translated, Joseph Smith Jr., Joseph Smith Sr., David Whitmer, the witness, Abraham, and John the Baptist. On top of this King David from the Bible is one of his guardian angels.

In addition to this, his time with Jesus seems exaggerated. He says, “Almost daily for a little over a 7-month period when He was my father. Every day, He would come and get me and take me places.”

Now with billions of people to tend to why would Jesus spend part of almost every day for seven months taking Whitmer places? For Jesus to spend that much time with an individual you would think there would be some grand purpose behind it.

Whitmer said this:

“You need to sanctify what you take into your mouth so that it will become your flesh. You need to sanctify what you drink so that it becomes your blood so that those become sanctified. That’s the renewing of the body. And the spirit of you needs to be in charge of that so that that can actually happen. So, that’s another ordinance in your Heavenly Father’s reality needs to take place. That’s the renewing of your body – overcoming sickness and disease and death.”

Whitmer died at age 74 in 2014 of a brain tumor so he wasn’t quite able to renew his body and overcome “sickness and disease and death.”

How long the tumor affected him we do not know, but it is possible it caused him to have some illusions that he took for reality.

In summary I think David Whitmer was a sincere man who wanted to serve God to the best of his ability and did have some spiritual experiences and received some valuable insights. I would recommend reading his account through the light of the spirit, but wouldn’t bet on the idea that his whole story is literally true. After all, his obituary did say he was a good storyteller.

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Visits from Immortals, Part 2

March 12, 2017March 12, 2017 Joseph Dewey

March 11, 2017

Visits from Immortals, Part 2

Notes from taped KSTAR David Whitmer Interview 11/15/95

Here is the second installment of teachings, thoughts and experiences of David Whitmer. As far as I know this is all that is available from this person

David: I mentioned that to Mike Watson up at the Church Office Building and he pulled out a Teachings of the Prophet and read it right there and said that I don’t believe there’s anyone here that knows that it actually says that.

Mike: We’ve got two callers on. They must have dropped off. So what did Mike Watson – He was just confirming what you said?

David: He was amazed that it was specifically for the keys to the Patriarchal family and that I had been in that Patriarchal family until it reached a point to where he could then turn me over to the Lord Jesus Christ, which is what he did about 2 years later.

Mike: What kind of step was that? Why would there be a change there? Was that like a progression for you?

David: Everything he had taught me or showed me or counseled me, was in a sense training me into the Patriarchal way of life, and once I was completely into it, then he took me to the Lord and released his sealing to me and that’s when the Lord then sealed me to His Son. And this would have been about when? March’ 89

Mike: Is this something you see that every person has to go through? Is that some kind of mandatory thing you’re talking about?

David: I’d say there is only one way to the Father and that is by Jesus, the one who has the tokens in his hand. He’s the one who introduced me to his Father. My testimony is about Jesus and His father and how they can work in individual lives.

Caller: Challenged. That’s too sacred to talk about. Why are you discussing these things?

David: Because I was told to. Otherwise, I wouldn’t.

Caller: Was that told by an angel? Who told you to share this?

David: Jesus’s Father himself told me that I needed to testify of the things that have happened with me.

Caller: I just wanted to get an idea of David’s feelings toward the church at this point.

David: I’ve always loved the church. I was always in the church until 1985. I don’t have any problem with the church. I think that everything the church is doing is good. There’s a purpose in everything. I think the purpose of the church is to bring people to Christ or point people towards Christ. I don’t have any problem with the authority in the church or what they’re doing.

Caller: He was excommunicated about 10 years ago?

David: Yes, It was June 1985

Caller: I’m wondering why he wouldn’t want to be rebaptized.

David: I’d be tickled to if the Lord had any reason or just told me to.

Caller: I’m curious. If this is the Lord’s church on earth, why He wouldn’t have him be a part of it in that way?

David: The church right now on the earth is a Telestial church dealing in a Telestial world. It functions in the Aaronic Priesthood with the Melchizedek Priesthood. Patriarchal Priesthood doesn’t function within a church, not a Telestial one anyway. It functions within the Church of the Firstborn. Its authority comes from God, it’s administered to by God. It’s dealing with the authority that a father has in his family. If home teachers or even a General authority comes to your home, you would preside as the father. It’s that authority that presides even if any high office of the church comes to your home. You’re functioning in your family, which is a higher organization than the church is. When you get into Patriarchal Priesthood, you’re doing what your Heavenly Father, which is your patriarch, tells you to do with His authority. It’s a complete different organization than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The LDS church is designed to bring people who are outside of the Kingdom of God, into the Kingdom of God and point them to Christ. But Jesus is still functioning and He’s waiting to talk to anyone that’s willing to listen.

Caller: What line of work.

David: I was a carpenter, working construction

Caller: I enquired of Mark E. Peterson in 1979 about the Coyle Dream Mine She read the letter Mark E Peterson had sent her in response. We strongly advise our members to have nothing to do with that mine. We do not believe it was an ancient Nephite mine, Nor do we believe that the 3 Nephites came and guided Br. Coyle in the direction of the mine. For 50 years. it has never produced the gold that is indicated that it should, nor the platinum, nor the silver. You know that Br. Coyle was excommunicated for insubordination Under the direction of the First Presidency going back into the days of Heber J. Grant, we have all been told to avoid this situation which we believe to have been a spurious, lacking authenticity, counterfeit, false inducement

Mike: I can tell you that there were several General Authorities that did have stock in the mine. There were a lot of supporters of John Coyle. There were also those who didn’t want any thing to do with it. What you look for in anything like this is – What is God telling you to do? You do what God tells you to do even if it goes contrary to what you’ve been taught.

David: Two Nephites showed me exactly what they had showed Bishop Coyle. A third Nephite showed me what he had showed Bishop Coyle and that’s something Bishop Coyle had never told anyone.

Mike: You never met Coyle?

David: No.

Caller: He’d heard that Spencer W. Kimball had anointed David. He wondered what year.

David: In1961 when he was an apostle and I was 19, Elder Kimball gave me a blessing in his office. My dad got me the appointment. My dad was my bishop and Spencer Kimball was my Stake President. He was a family friend because my grandfather and Spencer grew up together.

Caller: Have you used the test in D&C 129?

David: Lots of times. It works.

David: Faith is the result of belief. You have to believe first and then you can exercise faith in it. What you believe, you don’t necessarily have to do, but with faith, you are doing something – it’s like an action to what you believe. If your belief is that church is what is going to save you then that becomes true for you, but if your belief is that you need to have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, then Jesus Christ becomes what you exercise your faith in. It’s that faith that brings you to Jesus through how God works in your life until you yourself meet him face to face. Everyone testified of meeting with the Lord, walking and talking with him as one man talks with another. That takes faith to reach to that point. The Br. of Jared exercised faith and he was able to see the Lord. But if your belief system is such that you don’t need to see the Lord, then the chances are that will be true for you. If your faith is in something else besides Jesus then whatever that something else is, will become the most important thing in your life. That will be what your faith is exercised in and that will become true for you.

Mike: You’re putting something in between you and God.

David: You always do. If it isn’t God that’s telling you what to do specifically within your life right now, then what is it that’s telling you what to do. If it isn’t the Lord Jesus Christ, then what is it you’ve got your faith in.

Mike So when you started to exercise faith, and to let go of all these other things, is that when you started progressing?

Daivd: One of the keys is when you finally ask the Lord, “What’s keeping me from you?” And then you’re shown that anything that’s in your heart, anything that your desires and your heart is on other than the Lord is what’s keeping you from the Lord.

Mike: So are you saying that you don’t need an organization to find the Lord?

David: Well, the Lord has talked to a lot of people that are not in organizations. But he has to some that are. Once he talks to you and gets you on His program, going back to a school would be a little like going back to kindergarten or elementary school. In a sense, you’ve graduated to college.

Mike: Joseph Smith said that a man should seek to have his calling and election made sure, which basically is talking with the Lord face to face

David: 24 hours a day. Speak to him.

Mike: After that happens, what’s your responsibility then?

David: To do whatever he tells you to do,

Mike: Does it matter whether it is the Lord or the Father or who’s taking to you?

David: Well, if the Lord is only going to tell you what His Father’s told Him to say, then it’s the same as if the Father is saying it.

Mike: In the Book of Mormon, during the first 420 years, there is no organized religion or organization. It’s Patriarchal, I would say.

Caller: You were talking about anything getting in the way of your relationship with the Savior. I guess your thought is that sometimes the church is one of those things that might possibly get in the way of a relationship with the Savior.

David: Only if that’s more important to you than a relationship with the Lord.

Caller: Are you saying that you don’t need any ordinations or organizations in order to return to the Savior?

David: Well, the organization is actually set up by our Heavenly Father and if you read D&C 76, it will give you a whole lot of organization in the Celestial Kingdom where the Father presides and the Father initiates. The Father has the ordinations done on a lot of different levels. They can do it in the Church of Enoch level, they can do it on the Church of Christ level, they can do it on the Church of the Firstborn level. And that’s all organized and controlled by the Father. Everything is done using His authority which is Patriarchal.

Caller: In the Church of the First Born, do they need baptism or temple work?

David: Both I’ve done both in that organization.

Caller: Are they necessary in that Church of the First Born?

David: Everything that the Father says is necessary. If the Father doesn’t say it, then it’s not. It’s His organization and He’s in charge.

Caller: So is the prophet of the LDS church, is He the Lord’s prophet for the Church of the Firstborn?

David: No, not the Church of the Firstborn. But he is on the Church of Christ level. Why would you need a prophet to be in charge of your Heavenly Father when your Heavenly Father is in charge of it?

Caller: So you don’t think it’s necessary to be part of the Church of Jesus Christ because you’ve attained to a higher level?

David: The LDS church isn’t functioning in a Celestial sphere. It isn’t functioning in a Celestial organization. It’s functioning in a Telestial world and it’s a telestial organization in that world., And if it became a Terrestrial organization then it would be functioning just like the city of Enoch is right now.

Caller: Is there a leader of the Terrestrial organization on this earth right now?

David: Yes, His name is Jesus. He’s in charge and He ministers to the Terrestrial Kingdom. If you’re functioning in a Terrestrial level, then this is the one that’s ministering to you. If you’re functioning at a Telestial level, then it’s the Holy Ghost is ministering to you. If you’re functioning and actually living in a Celestial level, then it’s your Heavenly Father who is ministering to you.

Caller: So as members of the Church of Jesus Christ, we are members of the Telestial organization, but there is a higher organization that we could be a part of

David: That’s called the Church of Enoch and it’s explained to you in D&C 76.

Caller: But that means we don’t have to be a part of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.?

David: No. It’s kind of like you don’t need to be in kindergarten if you’re in high school.

Caller: Do you need the ordinance of baptism in the Church of Enoch?

David: I was baptized and confirmed into the Church of Enoch. Joseph Smith Sr. is the one who confirmed me. Joseph Smith Jr. baptized me directly, in person as a resurrected being.

Mike: The earth is moving from a Telestial existence to a Terrestrial existence. If we don’t focus on the one who is the head of that Terrestrial world.

David: You’ll be burned at His coming. Anyone living Telestial law will be burned when Jesus comes. Now is the time to decide which level you want to live.

Mike: Most people recognize that the Terrestrial world is a translation state. There’s not a lot of people around who know translated beings which would indicate that they are not living on a Terrestrial level, let alone Celestial. Basically, we are in the Telestial level, struggling to get into at least Terrestrial and then Celestial. But as you see it, what is the advantage of being here now in this particular time frame?

David: Being here now, you can choose to live Celestial law and to live a Celestial life right now. In every dispensation, the Lord has always offered the highest level first. And when anyone refuses the highest level, then they are given a lower level.

Mike: Are you saying that during Joseph Smith’s time, he was given the Celestial level?

David: Yes. Absolutely

Mike: Was he also given an opportunity for the Terrestrial level?

David: When they wouldn’t live the Celestial level, then they were given the Terrestrial and when they wouldn’t live that, they were given the Telestial. That’s why they had to be driven out each time so they could go down to a lower level.

Mike: You mean, they actually blended in better as they went down?

David: Right. Until they became where you couldn’t tell between them and Babylon.

Caller: He thought David was wrong about the analogy to kindergarten and high school and that the Lord is leading the LDS church. If you’re not trying to be part of the LDS church then you need to go back to Primary.

David: Christ is giving the prophet everything that he can get the people to live. The Lord is working with everyone on whatever level they are on. And it’s their choice as to what level they want.

Caller: Joseph Smith saw angels, etc. but he didn’t separate himself from the Church.

David: When Joseph met the Lord, he did what the Lord told him to do. If you meet the Lord, you’ll do what he Lord tells you to do. If the church is already organized, then why would the Lord have me or someone else go reorganize another church. He doesn’t need to because the Lord’s church is already functioning.

Caller: But Joseph didn’t separate himself

David: I didn’t separate myself from the church.

Caller: But you’re placing yourself above the church. I think this is the error you have. You have many good ideas, but you miss the mark.

David: Who do you think the mark is if it isn’t the Lord Jesus Christ.

Caller: Christ and the church will help us.

David: That’s true. The church helped me. That is the purpose of the church – so you don’t miss the mark and the mark is Jesus himself, in person.

Caller: Asked about David’s excommunication and said that the ordinances David had received were no more effect..

David: That’s true. The church ordinances no longer have effect.

Caller: Your baptism is null and void.

David: The baptism I received in the church is null and void

Caller: By the power of the priesthood.

David: By the power of the priesthood that the church has. Yes

Caller: You know, I go to church and I work real hard and I try my darndest to do my home teaching I try my darndest to go work at the welfare services whenever our stake is called to. I do these things that I’ve been told to do and it amazes me that you just have such a greater calling that you don’t have to do those type of things

David: No, I didn’t say that at all.

Caller: Do you do home teaching?

David: I do home teaching, yes.

Caller: Do you sustain?

David: Yes.

Caller: Then why aren’t you a member of the church?

David: If the church hadn’t excommunicated me, I’d still be a member.

Caller: But you’re not sustaining them

David: But I did. I still do. Let me ask you a question. If the Lord Jesus Christ talked to you in person, what would you do?

Caller: I believe I wouldn’t be casting my pearls before the swine.

David: If Jesus told you to now testify of what he’s done in your life, then what would you do?

Caller: He would never tell me to leave the church.

David: He didn’t tell me to leave the church. My Stake President did.

Caller: He’s called of God and he’s over you.

David: That’s right.

Caller: He has the authority to do that.

David: He has authority in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Who do you think officiates in the Church of Enoch and the Church of the First Born?

Caller: I’ve never been taught that. That’s not important to my salvation.

David: That’s true. If that’s what you believe, it won’t be important to you if you don’t believe it will be.

Caller: I don’t know how to live a Celestial life here. I have a hard enough time doing my home teaching and doing my lessons every week. I have my own children to raise I don’t have time for that other kind of stuff. It’s amazing to me that you have that kind of time. Joseph Smith taught people close to him. It blows me away that you are talking about these kinds of things on the radio. The caller thought David ought to go to the Stake President and get back into church and then said, I’ve never heard any prophet talk about the church of Enoch.

David: That’s because they don’t officiate in the church of Enoch.

Caller: I’m surprised that we would hear it from you and not a prophet.

David: If the prophet was in charge of the church of Enoch, he’d probably talk about it. But if he’s not in charge of the church of Enoch, who is?

Caller: You’re not in charge of the church of Enoch Jesus Christ is.

David: Joseph Smith Jr. technically is.

Caller: The prophet.

David: The prophet is doing what he can get the people to do

Caller: Is he involved in the church of Enoch as well?

David: I don’t know. Personally, he could be. But see, it’s on a personal basis. If you went to the prophet’s home, he as the father would preside in that family. He wouldn’t be using his prophet, seer and revelator keys of the church to function as a father in his family.

Caller: Do you have a family, sir?

David: Oh yes, I’ve got nine children.

Caller: Are they active in the church?

David: Not the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Caller: Are they active in that church?

David: The church of Enoch? Yes.

Caller: In other words, they’ve had their calling and election

David: Yes. You should seek 24 hours a day to have your calling and election made sure.

Caller: And they were able to make this decision themselves?

David: Oh, Absolutely. They’ve had visitations, ministering of angels .

Caller: They’ve had the temple ordinances?

David: Absolutely.

Caller: What message has Christ asked you to give those who have ears to hear?

David: The message is to believe in him and seek this Jesus, the one that’s going to lead you to the Father. Because if you don’t seek him now, you’re not going to be in the same process, getting into the millennium. Now is the time to seek this Jesus and to center on the Father. Now is the time that the hearts of the children should be turning to their fathers in heaven and now is the time that they’re focusing on you, their children. Now is the time to focus on God and find out what God wants you to do in your life.

Caller: Why isn’t this being taught? I understand that the church is an organization and that the gospel of Jesus Christ is eternal, but why isn’t this being taught in the quorums? Why aren’t we sticking with the essentials instead of worrying about

David Whitmer had been on the show 11/15. We got quite a bit of response from that. He consented to come back and share more of his insights.

Mike: We talked about your experiences with meeting the Lord and coming unto him. Let’s do a brief synopsis of your story and then let’s get into talking a little bit more of doctrinal information.

David: I was raised in the Mormon church. In 1985, I started receiving visions and revelations and went through a series of experiences – one of the visions was 3 times in one night seeing the destruction of Utah. Then I had an angel come and said that I was ready for re-baptism. My two grandfathers had passed away and appeared to me and told me that I needed to continue on my path and obtain the Patriarchal priesthood and seal into my Patriarchal family so they could progress where they were at. I’ve seen Moroni, Joseph Smith Jr. I was sealed into Joseph Smith Sr.’s patriarchal family. Over the next couple of years taught me and guided me and gave me revelation and then introduced me to the Lord. I then became Jesus’s patriarchalson; he became my patriarchal father. And that was in August of 88.

Mike: Are you aware of anybody else who has had that kind of experience or Were you aware of anybody who had been put into the patriarchal family of either Joseph Smith Sr. or Jesus Christ before it happened to you?

David: No. I didn’t even know very much about the patriarchal priesthood. At the time, I was teaching the high priests and 70’s in my ward as the instructor. I’d prepared a lesson and when I opened my mouth, out came Patriarchal priesthood and I taught them things that I’d never heard before, never seen.

Mike: Is that what you were taught when you were being led by Joseph Smith Sr. and Jesus Christ?

David: Right. Everything they teach you is about Patriarchal priesthood and the patriarchal order which is coming into the family of Christ. The city of Enoch went into this Patriarchal order. That’s why they were able to obtain what they obtained as a city.

Mike: I had a question. Did you notice a difference in the way you prayed or your attitude about prayer as these things started to happen? Was it more sincere? What started to kick this off?

David: It was actually was when I reached a stage of what they call a broken heart and contrite spirit. I’d gone through 2 1/2 years with my 2nd son who had gotten spinal meningitis He had it 3 times and pneumonia 13 times before he’d passed away. And in that time, I went through a quandary as to why there was a lack of faith. Faith is what heals and being raised in the church I thought that everyone had faith and everything you do is by faith but with all the blessings that my son received he never got better. And so I started to wonder or question as to what was faith. What was it about and how it actually functioned. Through this and the anguish that I went through, I reached a stage they call a broken heart and contrite spirit. And when that happened, that’s when all these things started happening. Right in the beginning they taught me that the true way to pray is in your heart. Don’t appear to be praying to others. Pray with uplifted hands. In my research I found that there were something like 12 places in the journal of discourses where they mentioned praying or singing with uplifted hands. And so I started to change the way I was doing things and I was more sincere, using faith, meaning I actually believed I was talking to God and that’s when all these things started happening.

Mike: So what would you give us as a definition of faith, based on your experience at that time?

David: Believing that God isn’t something in the future, but God is here now. Believing that he listens now, that he’s real. It’s not something you’re learning about. It’s someone you’re learning of right now. You’re believing in things unseen and first you have to believe before you can receive a witness. The Spirit can be waiting right there but until you, but until you believe or exercise faith there can be no witness by the Spirit.

Mike: As you were saying that, I was thinking of the time when Christ talks about actually, I believe it was in the area he was born and he talks about how he could do no miracles among them for they had no faith. It appeared to me that it takes two parties to create enough faith for something to actually happen. The people had to have enough faith and of course, Christ had faith. It was interesting that he could go to a place where he couldn’t do any miracles.

David: When he was my father, he told me that even those that he did heal as soon as they started to believe, for instance, a lame person, within a week or two, he would start to favor his leg again because his belief system was that he did have a leg that was weaker than the other. As soon as he started believing that again, it then returned to him. So, even some of the people he healed, actually returned to their former problem. And he says, he could have healed a lot more people if they’d have just exercised the slightest bit of faith.

Mike: What was that like while he was actually working with you? Was this a one on one, seeing with your natural eyes?

David: Right.

Caller: You mentioned that you saw the destruction of Utah 3 times in a vision What do you see as a destiny for this church as a whole? How will the redemption of Zion take place for us? When will we go back?

David: The destruction I saw was where Jesus says that he’s going to start by cleaning his house first. He’s going to begin by cleaning his house, meaning those that have the most are now going to go through a period that they’re going to have taken away from them everything that they thought was going to save them, and if their focus isn’t on Him, then everything they’ve focused on will be destroyed. That’s what he showed me.

Caller Will the church have a role in the redemption of Zion?

David: It would be better to say that it would be done from Jesus’s father’s program of the Patriarchal order. This is what is going to redeem Zion. Part of the cleansing process is to clean out everything that isn’t focused on Jesus and his father.

Caller: It’s always been my understanding that the Lamanites will redeem Zion and not us, but those of us who are willing will be included.

David: On kind of an assist basis.

Caller: Do you see any kind of a group here going back to Jackson County?

David: It isn’t a very large group. I talked to a shaman, a medicine man from the Souix nation and one of the things he told me was that (it was about 4 years ago when I talked to him) Jesus and Enoch had appeared to his tribal council 6 times in the past 4 years, giving them instructions on the things they needed to get prepared so that they could go back and build New Jerusalem. So, they’re already receiving instructions, those that are going to be the prime movers and shakers you might say.

Caller: I’m wondering about those of us here who want to be a part of that, how we can be a part of that? I have a question for you,

Mike. In the Hopi scriptures there is a chapter on the levels of light and that is written pretty much in first person with the I pronoun used quite a bit. I was wondering who wrote that. There’s no reference that I could find.

Mike: When I had first come across that a gal from Idaho who – she didn’t wish to leave her name – she told me that Mormon was the one who dictated that information. I talked to Dave a little bit about it and we had discussed this at length on a trip we took down to Lake Mead It was his opinion that it was probably the second of the three Nephites who was actually the one who dictated it. I’m not actually sure.

David: He could have been quoting Mormon.

Caller: It sounds like he may be making a prophecy. He talks about the church progressing along until it’s 160 years old (which is 5 years ago) and then a group beginning to come from the church and being persecuted by the church It sounds kind of like prophecy, but I wonder when it was written.

Mike: I believe it’s modern. It’s interesting because there’s not any formal organization that I’ve witnessed coming out from the church that’s doing that. It’s more of on a one-on- one individual basis working directly with God. Dave, what’s your opinion?

David: That’s exactly right. That is the group. Those that will focus on the Lord are then prepared. They’re the ones that will be taken out and go on into this Patriarchal order or the Father’s program.

Mike: There’s really no one leading it. It think it indicates that in the levels of light. There’s no real leadership among this group.

David: That’s because Jesus is the leader.

Mike: Caller, did you see the article in the Ogden Standard Examiner this past conference about the three men who appeared at Temple Square.

Caller: Yes, I did. Who were the three men?

David: They were men of God. Doing just what they were told to do and nothing more.

Mike: The way that they talked and the information they gave definitely would classify them in my book as men of God and of a very high level.

Caller: I didn’t get too much on what they said.

Mike: Well it talked about them speaking in the Adamic language, doing only the will of the Father, not condemning anybody. They weren’t condemning any church or organization. They were just there to perform certain tasks and I believe they went to the 4 corners, didn’t they?

David: They were sealing Temple Square for the return of the saints in seven years. And in the next paragraph the newspaper referred to the Olympics in the year 2002, which is 7 years.

Caller: One last question. Any information as to when the destruction will start here in Utah?

David: The only thing I’ve been told is that it will be now when it happens but they didn’t say when that would be They said, don’t focus on it. If you focus on it, with the idea that if fear motivates you in any aspect of your life, that fear will be what will then initiate the destruction in your own life. You should be operating out of faith, faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. If you focus that way, then there will be no fear.

Mike: If you look back at Alma and Amulek and those types, they had no fear. It didn’t matter what circumstances they were put in, they knew that God was going to protect them. The key now is to get to know God. well enough that you know he’s going to protect you, or if you go, it’s OK.

Caller: We all have a responsibility to come unto Christ and enter the Millennium, but the earth itself is doing the same thing. We’re coming to a focal point here and there will be a time where if you haven’t come unto Christ, there will be a force situation. When the earth goes through its change, those who aren’t prepared won’t be around.

David: Right. The earlier caller mentioned the levels of light. It explains the telestial, terrestial and celestial. Those that are Celestial will actually be prepared and they’ll miss the destruction because they’ll be above sickness, disesase, death and all those things. Those that are Terrestrial will get to experience the destruction but they will survive. Those that are Telestial won’t survive it.

Caller: You have the responsibility to choose one of those three levels before it starts or it’s going to drag you through it.

Mike: I think that’s what we saw happen to Noah. The earth went through a cleaning, it want through it’s baptism of water and then it’s going to go through a baptism of fire. but how many survived that particular event?

Caller: I have some concerns. I’m a returned missionary I’ve been taught from a young child that revelation is given according to the needs of the church and given in the hierarchy that the Lord has set up. Why would the Lord give someone revelation that’s going to have an impact on the whole church when that person is not in the leadership of the church?

David: Everything that the Lord has taught me and everything that I’ve received revelation wise, is strictly for me and my family. It relates to being the father of a family. If the president of the church came into your home, as a father, you would still preside and the authority that you would use to preside over the president being in your home is that authority. And everything concerning you and your stewardship which is your family you have the right and duty to go to God and find out what to do– the same way Abraham did, the same way Moroni did, the same way all of these prophets in the past did concerning their family.

Mike: I don’t think anyone here is trying to guide the church. Did you get that feeling from what we were saying?

Caller: Not really. I’m just trying to understand. I agree with leadership in the family. I guess if I had this kind of experience it would probably be so sacred to me that I’d have a hard time sitting on the radio talking about it and before I did so, I’d probably check first with the prophet to make sure that it’s OK that I’m teaching such a higher level doctrine and I’d kind of want their stamp of approval. Has the guest followed those steps?

David: When Jesus became my patriarchal father, the covenant that I made with Him at that time was that I would obey Him in all things whatsoever he shall command me, consult with me, teach me, guide me, everything that he did I obeyed. When he took me to His Father – the one we call our Heavenly Father – and turned me over to Him, I was then sealed to Him as his Patriarchal son. He became my Patriarchal Father. And I made the same covenant with Him, that I would obey Him. And when he tells me that I need to go testify of what’s happened in my life with his son Jesus and with Him, that’s who I obey. I don’t have to go get permission from anyone.

Caller: Did you actually touch Jesus Christ? and feel a physical, resurrected being?

David: Many times. Almost daily for a little over a 7-month period when He was my father. Every day, He would come and get me and take me places. He took me out to the Great Salt Lake and he baptized me in the Great Salt Lake. He confirmed me into the Church of the First Born. He told me that if I ever denied any of the things that He’s done with me, that He would then deny me before the Father. When He took me to His Father and I became His Father’s Son, He told me the same thing and that I’m not to fear I’m just supposed to testify. They tell me the exact words I can speak. They don’t tell me to add anything to it, but they do tell me don’t leave anything out.

Caller: How would you respond if you got a following that came to you for answers rather than turning to the scriptures and general authorities?

David: I’ve told hundreds of people, it’s their duty to go find God themselves and do what God tells them to do. It’s not my duty to tell you what you should be doing. It’s not my duty to tell the church. It’s what you and your families need to be doing.

Mike: People want to cling to someone who has had spiritual experiences because they may not have had that in their own life and they want to follow someone who has.

Caller: I’ve seen that and I agree with that. I’ve seen people go inactive or leave the church because they base it on someone else’s experience. I’ve had some spiritual experiences, nothing like your guest has had, but it’s been my experience that those things are to be kept sacred. They are for me to ponder on, to share with my family at appropriate times when the spirit is strong. And I’ve had some bad experiences casting pearls before swine.

Mike: So did Alma, so did Paul but they were told to testify and so they did.

Caller: You watch the general authorities in General Conference and they don’t say, “the other day when I was talking to Christ” What they say is “I know that Christ lives.” When they say that, I interpret that to mean that yes, they have been with Him, they have been instructed by Him and they can bear testimony that they know. But to trivialize it by saying, “Well, you know I was with him and touched him,” it goes against the sacredness of the whole thing in my opinion.

Mike: Actually, what you’re going to find out is that Jesus Christ is a real, loving , kind being

David: Who is alive right now.

Mike: And sometimes we try to put this on a pedestal that becomes unreachable. When you do that, you’re creating a gap between you and Him that you need to overcome. Commercials White Sands development. The book Sacred Scripture.

Caller: I remember reading his [David’s] paper back when he did some firesides. and he mentioned cycling therein. He said it was a can of worms and didn’t want to get into it.

Mike: Are you talking about recycling? Along the line of reincarnation?

Caller: Along that line, but not the same.

David: I don’t recall saying anything about recycling. Was it reincarnation or something like that?

Caller: Well, it was like that but a person has to go through life cycles to get to a point where he can come to the Savior.

Mike: I do know which paper you are taking about. There were 5 people that got together one night and recorded the conversation with Dave and that was a couple of years ago. That got transcribed into a 26-page document that’s been passed all over the place. Dave, why don’t you make any comments you might have on recycling.

David: Any time I’ve talked about humans, I’ve said, This is the life that you need to prepare to meet God. Right now. A lot of people I’ve run into can remember past lives. What I’ve found is that they’re remembering being a guardian angel for someone else and all of their memories are that person’s life. It’s not them living the life; it was them being a guardian angel or in charge of someone else’s life so that they could record it and that’s where their memories are coming from that I’ve personally run into..

Caller: These people that have had experiences from past lives, could it be genetic coding or genetic information?

David: I wouldn’t know. I’ve never been taught anything about that.

Mike: Let’s go back [to what we were talking about before]. Obviously, with anybody, in order to have a visitation or manifestation, it’s going to take some effort on their part in actually believing. I think the biggest problem most people have is they don’t really believe that it can happen. And they manifest that belief by it not happening.

David: If their belief is that it won’t happen, then they do manifest that because then it comes true to them. Whatever they believe becomes reality. To them., so they’re actually creating with their belief system. They actually start living what they believe.

Mike: So how do you discover the mysteries of godliness, then? What are they actually?

David: That He’s real. And when you be what your Heavenly Father’s reality of you is, then you become is real.

Mike: You are real to God, then

David: That’s right. You see, the part of you that He knows is real, is usually just sitting there waiting because you’re so busy trying to do what you want or trying to make happen in your life and until you actually trust God and come into his own reality then he just lets you do what you want to do with your life.

Mike: So, you actually change the program to where you’re doing what he wants. as opposed to doing what you want?

David: It’s more like you actually exercise faith by trusting him and then letting him run your life is really what faith is.

Mike: For a lot of people I think that’s easy to say, but the reality of doing that is a whole nother step. What does a person actually do to make that happen? Give me an example of stepping out in fatih.

David: If you actually tell him that you are willing to do anything he wants you to do and then actually do that and nothing else, He then takes over your life. When you reach that point, that’s when they actually take your prayer right to the father and say, See, they have a list of prayers and if the guardian angel says, Oh this is #141, they don’t really have to send it on because they just write down how many times you’ve said these types of prayers. but when you reach a point where you’re willing to trust God, then they run right there. And he says, OK, Let’s find out if they really are. And they’ll tell you things like “Get out of your car and just walk away” and most of the time, they’ll get a lot of arguments like, “Yeah but I’ve got a lot of things I need to go and do.” I’ve been on a lot of journeys a lot of places where he told me to go that didn’t make sense to me but I trusted him. I’ve been a lot of places with no money and I’ve had people just walk up and hand me money, or just take me and feed me. And in every case, I knew that it was God who had had that happen to me because I was trusting him. So it’s just a matter of actually being willing. I’ve found that it hasn’t got anything to do with worthiness, it has to do with willingness.

Mike: You talked about coming to a point where you had a broken heart and a contrite spirit. A lot of people have experienced this very same thing of losing a child as you have, but they haven’t had the experiences you’ve had starting at that point. There has to be a designation, at least in most people’s minds. I’ve had this experience, they’re saying, but I’m not experiencing what you have experienced.

David: My son died in’82 and it took me 3 years to get to the point where my realization that I couldn’t even save my son and if I can’t save myself then how can I save my family and if I can’t save me or my family, why am I on a stake mission trying to save someone else? In those three years, I went through all these dilemmas and when I had the broken heart and contrite spirit I finally gave up trying to do it myself, trying to get God to do it. Anything like that. When I finally said, Here I am

Mike: Instead of trying to tie God’s hands into what you wanted done

David: Raised in the church, I had all these This is the way God is going to work with me. This is how you get God to talk to you. You have to have so many tithing receipts and you have to have so many slips from the temple, you have to help so many times at the stake farm and I realized that when he talked to me it didn’t have any relationship to any of those things. It merely was when I gave up. It’s like Peter getting out of the boat – everything that he as a fisherman thought was safety to him, He got out of the boat and was going to the Lord. When he started thinking and realizing, what am I doing? “I’ve left everything that was safety to me,” that’s when he sank. When he went down three times, he reached the point in the third time to say, Lord save me. I can’t save me now. You save me. So there’s the broken heart and contrite spirit. I’m not going to put any more conditions on how you talk to me, when you talk to me, what you have me do or anything. Just “Here I am.” That’s when they started talking to me.

Mike: So when the Lord says in the scriptures, that the only acceptable sacrifice is a broken heart and a contrite spirit, He means exactly that.

David: That’s all it takes

Mike: Why don’t you go on with that story of Peter. Christ then does what?

David: What was safety to Peter, to show it in my own life, to me, the church was safety. The church was like the boat. As long as I stayed in the boat I was going to be safe. To Peter, a fisherman, he had a lot of friends and relatives he knew that if the boat went down, they went down and they died. There wasn’t savings. So to Peter, you stay in the boat or you drown. So when Peter saw the Lord and focused on the Lord, the Lord has always said, “Come unto me.” When Peter got out of the boat and headed for the Lord, he realized, “Oh my gosh, I’ve just left everything I thought was going to save me.”

David: See, his belief system was that if you’re not in the boat, you’re going to drown. Believing that, he starts to drown. When he finally said, OK. I can’t save me, so here, Lord. Save me. The Lord always will. Always can, but he can’t do it on your conditions. He only does it on his Father’s conditions. In other words, the Father tells him, until the person does this, don’t save them. Don’t put your hand out. Don’t talk to them. And Jesus has never talked to anyone except his father told him to go talk to them. He’s never saved anyone until the Father says. So the conditions are the Father’s not ours.

Mike: So then he reaches down, grabs hold of Peter

David: And he lifts him back up on the water and Peter is now experiencing what it’s like to walk on the water, but he does have his hand in the Lord’s, So what does the Lord do? He takes him back over to the boat and puts him in it, but you can’t get Peter to believe that the boat is his safety and salvation. He knows the Lord is. You can use the boat, but the boat isn’t your safety and salvation anymore.

Mike: So I guess if we parallel that with our own lives, there are a whole bunch of things that are our boat and our safety.

David: It can be family, it can be job, it can be retirement.

Keith: What you’re saying is that anything you place between you and God is that boat of safety.

David: Absolutely.

Keith: So it could be the mighty buck, or anything in reality

Mike: Career, I can think of a list

David: Everything the rich young man had.

Mike: As you look at the scriptures, it seems to me, every single person who wrote. Everything is basically how God was dealing with that individual and it comes back to the same issue of learning to let go and step out and do whatever God told them to do.

David: Yes. Abraham paid his tithes to Melchizedek, Melchizedek was the head of the church. But Abraham didn’t go to Melchizedek to find out what to do with his family. The Lord walked and talked with him and told him what to do with his family and all of his concerns.

Mike How do you plug ordinances into this particular system, into developing faith in God. Where do they fit? Most of us have been taught all our life that you’ve got this ordinance, that ordinance‚Ä¶

David: Salvation is on these ordinances.

Mike: Jesus Christ himself was baptized. So how do they fit?

David: But who did Jesus go to to get baptized?

Mike: John

David: But see they had a font in the Jerusalem temple and they had high priests that could quote their priesthood genealogy back to Moses, so why did he go to John? Because John was the only one of them that could say, in fact when did John get his authority and who did he get it from?

Mike: He got it when he was in the womb, didn’t he?

David: He received the Holy Ghost when yet in the womb and when he was 8 days old, an angel, a messenger from God came and gave him his authority.

Keith: The temple or the ordinances that you referred to – baptism or the rites that are performed in the temple – all those things are conditioned upon something – usually faith or righteousness or they are a likeness or shadow of that which you can do in the future. In the scriptures it says that if you listen to the Holy Ghost, he will take you to the Father (D&C 84) and the Father will give unto you the covenant. Is he fulfilling the covenant you made in baptism?

David: Joseph Smith once said, You might as well baptize bags of sand if something doesn’t change. If you’re still the same person – in other words, baptizing your elements is the same as baptizing a bag of sand. You can do it over and over. It’s what those ordinances – see, they are in similitude of something that does have to happen to you. It’s true you need to be baptized by water and that’s in similitude of what actually has to happen to you. You need to be baptized in the light of Christ, in the love of Christ and when every cell in your body is immersed in the light of Christ, there’s no more darkness in you, there’s no more disposition to do evil. Now it’s actually happened. But until that happens, the baptism of water can’t save you. It’s to point you to, this is what’s got to happen to you.

Mike: The way it was told to me was that baptism was an outward sign.

Keith: I’ve said this a million times on my mission. It’s something that happens inwardly and when you have that outward sign, it’s to remember the change that took place inwardly. So it’s actually something there to remind you that through this spiritual experience, you were born again in water.

David: The sacrament reminds you of the covenants you made at baptism. That you’ll take upon yourself his name. The sacrament ordinance is the same type of a thing. It represents something that literally has to happen to you. You need to sanctify what you take into your mouth so that it will become your flesh. You need to sanctify what you drink so that it becomes your blood so that those become sanctified. That’s the renewing of the body. And the spirit of you needs to be in charge of that so that that can actually happen. So, that’s another ordinance in your Heavenly Father’s reality needs to take place. That’s the renewing of your body – overcoming sickness and disease and death.

Mike: In your experience what kind of ordinances did you actually go through?

David: When the first angel came and said I was ready for rebaptism, I went to my bishop and told him what the angel had said, and he actually called the temple to get me an appointment. They said, We don’t do that anymore. So then he called the stake president and asked him if we could use the stake baptismal font. He checked and they said, We don’t do that anymore. In the discussion with the angel, I said, What do you mean by rebaptism? I’ve been baptized. He said, You’re ready now to be rebaptized in preparation to receiving further ordinances. Now, since that time, I’ve been baptized right around 38 times in different situations by different people. I was baptized by Joseph Smith Sr. into the Church of Christ and confirmed in the Church of Christ. I was baptized by Joseph Smith Jr. and it happened to be in the baptismal font of the temple in the city of Enoch. And then he confirmed me into the Church of Enoch. Then I was baptized in the Great Salt Lake by Jesus in person who then confirmed me into the Church of the Firstborn. So all of these baptisms are in preparation to receiving further ordinances. It’s a cleansing process. They all go hand in hand. And that’s how the Heavenly Father’s system operates. Station break

Mike: We’ve been talking about coming unto Christ and what it takes to do that. Which is probably a important as it gets. Let’s talk a little about priesthood. You talk about Patriarchal priesthood, there’s Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthood. These are things we were brought up with church wise. How do they fit, Dave in your mind and what have you been told with regards to Aaronic priesthood.

David: Aaronic priesthood is part of the school master that brings you to Christ. It’s a make work program to get the – starting with 12 year old boys – to learn how to serve. Anyone who has been at a ward dinner knows that the girls already know how to serve. So the boys go into a program where they learn how to serve The Aaronic priesthood is one of doing physical things like preparing the sacrament, passing the sacrament, they go home teaching, they go to the stake farm and the bishop is really the culmination of it. Now he’s serving a whole ward. He’s trying to take care of all their needs – their physical needs – shelter, clothing, provides classes, ways of teaching the gospel. Things like that. That’s the Aaronic level.

Mike: You mentioned that women really don’t need that because they already know how to serve.

David: They already know how to serve, so they don’t have to go through a training process to learn that. They’ve already in a sense passed those programs. It’s the natural man that’s an enemy to God that has to be taught how to serve.

Mike: That makes me feel good. Natural man has a tendency to do things if it benefits them. So, natural man has to be in the Aaronic priesthood program, saying, Look, you’ve got to come and do this, but we’ll give you credit. We’ll put down on the roll that you were here. We’ll put down that you passed the sacrament. They’re getting you in a program saying, Look, you’ve got to do this for yourself so that you can get credit for it. That’s what the Aaronic priesthood really is.

Mike: Then you’ve got to strip that all away as you continue to progress to where you’re getting credit from God and not taking glory unto yourself. On my tithing receipts I always had my name on there

David: So who got honor from man to man?

Mike: I probably did. That’s a hard thing to get out of – the praise and honor of men, at least I think in the beginning as you progress. But after a while, you get to the point you want to get rid of them. I don’t want anyone following me. You’re probably the same. OK. Melchizedek priesthood. What’s the purpose there?

David: It was originally called the priesthood after the order of the Son of God. And they named it Melchizedek so they wouldn’t have to say the word God that many times. Melchizedek is where they focus on helping others. Instead of doing it for yourself, they start teaching you the spiritual end of things.

Mike: Would you say that that’s more then a Terrestrial level?

David: Right. That would be terrestrial where your focus is on others. You’re focused, like John the Beloved, how does this benefit others? I’ll stay here and keep bringing more people to the Lord. If your focus is on terrestrial you get into a program where everything you do benefits others.

Mike: So, Patriarchal. How does that priesthood fit in?

David: Patriarch means Father. So the Patriarchal priesthood is the priesthood of the Father. Another way they call it is the priesthood of the Ancient of Days. That’s the priesthood Adam had when he was on the earth. That focus is on God the Father. There isn’t a focus on anything except the will of the Father. It doesn’t matter what the will of the Father is for you, that’s what you do. Examples of that would be Noah, receiving from God the instructions to build an ark. Noah didn’t care what other people thought of him. He didn’t care even what his wife and children thought. He just was doing it because God told him to.

Mike: He got a lot of persecution for it.

David: He got all of his neighbors, all of his ward members actually made fun of him. Here’s a guy building a boat 200 miles from the nearest water and he took a long time to build it and the whole time they were saying, what a fool. Why are you doing this? God told him to. His focus was on the will of the Father. Nothing else mattered. And that’s really the Celestial program. In that book called Sacred Scriptures and the Levels of Light it actually describes all 3 levels and the focus of the Celestial is on doing only the will of the Father. That’s why Jesus was able to say, I’ve done nothing but what I’ve seen my Father do. I’ve said nothing but what my Father has told me to say.

Mike: So when He says ,You become one with me as I am one with the Father, He’s really saying

David: Focus on the Father. That I am – Jesus is the way to the Father. You need to focus on him but this is what the sealing power of Elijah is to turn the hearts of the children to the fathers, because the hearts of the fathers are turned now to the children.

Keith: So when the Pharisees asked the question, What is the great commandment? He gave the highest level of that.

David: He actually gave all three levels. Celestial is to love God with all your heart might, mind and strength. Now if you do that, how much of your heart is left to love someone else? He says the second is like unto it. If you view it from your Heavenly Father’s reality, something that is like unto is like a mirror reflection. You can see you in the mirror and there’s you. The reflection is like unto the reality. So, the second is like unto it. In other words, it’s similar but it’s a different level. It says the second is Love thy neighbor.- there’s terrestrial love as thyself – there’s telestial love. So you can pick any one of the three that you choose and that’s what you focus on.

Mike: That’s interesting. You can probably see it in everybody you work around and in your own life in everything that you do. You either focus on God, or focus on others or yourself.

David: In every dispensation, our Heavenly Father provided us with the highest Celestial laws first. The highest program was always provided first. When the people rejected it, then he would always give lesser.

Mike: So where would like the law of tithing would be?

David: Well, who gets the honor and who gets the credit? Whose name do they put on it? And He says if you get the honor/credit now among men, you’re not going to get the credit in heaven.

Mike: So that would be telestial.

David: That would be telestial because who is it benefiting? It’s benefiting the one who has his name on the tithing receipt.

Mike: Then how would you bring tithing to a terrestrial level?

David: If you did it soley to help others with no return to yourself. You don’t get credit. You don’t get any honor. That’s what he talks about when he says, If you’re going to do it, do it so the right hand doesn’t know what the left hand is doing. So that even the person being helped doesn’t know it was you that helped them. That’s the terrestrial level and everything you do is to benefit others.

Mike: OK. Celestial then?

David: Celestial is really the law of Consecration. All that you have, all that you ever will have, all that you have had, you consecrate to the Lord for him to use in the building up of his kingdom. If you do that, what have you got left? Nothing. You’re just now a steward of his And when your perception changes to This is God’s. Then, you don’t initiate something. You don’t say, this is what I want to do with it. You do what God wants you to do with it. Because He’s alive and he can tell you what he wants. But he only gets involved when you’re willing to put your trust and faith in Him and come to Him through his Son Jesus Christ.

Mike: Again, we’re listening to Dave Whitmer. I’m Mike Rigby and I’m co- hosting with Keith Roberts tonight. Let’s talk a little bit here, we’ve mentioned these different levels and actually you can see any scripture, any ordinance, any blessing, anything happening on one of those three levels.

David: Right. The Lord Jesus, when he was my Father, He taught me that in all the scriptures, there are 15 levels of understanding. There’s 5 levels Celestial, 5 levels Terrestrial, and 5 levels Telestial. And whatever understanding you have is true on that level, but if you talk to someone who is on a different level you can have a lively discussion and both of you think you are right, and you are, just neither one understands the other one’s level.

Caller: I’m a little confused. When you were talking about baptism earlier, you said that you were baptized by Joseph Smith Sr. into the Church of Christ and I wondered how that fit, because I thought I was baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ, so what’s the difference?

David: The original church that Joseph Smith organized was called the Church of Christ. But when the church changed the name to the Church of the Latter-day Saints, it ceased being the Church of Christ. The main reason they changed it was because they needed to get the name Christ out of the church name so they would stop being persecuted.

Mike: Wasn’t Joseph Smith gone at the time?

David: Right. I think he was gone to Canada on a mission or something.

Mike: Caller, it went for a few years and in 1836, they recombined it back.

David: That’s when Jesus said, I’m not going to have anything to do with the church because it hasn’t got my name in it, but if you’ll be known from now on as the Church of Jesus Christ you can still be the Latter-day Saints if that’s what you want, but if you’ll put my name in there, I’ll start having more to do with you. Actually, that’s when he said the whole church was under condemnation also.

Caller: Now, you’ve really confused me. I guess I’ll have to go back and read some more Church History.

Mike: Do you remember where that is exactly where he talks about the whole church is under condemnation?

David: The best way to look at it is if you go back and get an original1835 edition of the D&C. You can get that at Deseret Bookstore or Sam Wellers. If you get an 1833 edition of the Book of Commandments, it will be published by under the Church of Christ. The original Book of Mormon (1829) would be under the Church of Christ.

Caller: So, when Joseph Smith organized the church, what was it organized as then?

David: It was originally organized in 1829 as the Church of Christ according to the laws of God.

Caller: Is that in the D&C? Where did you find that out?

David: Actually, Hugh Nibley is the one who explained that to me and showed it to me. In 1829, the church was organized according to the laws of God. In every dispensation, they always start with the Celestial program first. And in April 6, 1830, they in essence reorganized the church according to the laws of the state of New York. Now, you’ve taken an organization that was set up according to your Heavenly Father’s law and now you’re saying, We want it reorganized according to the laws of the state of New York. Between those two organizations which one do you think will be the higher?

Caller: Well, of course, God’s law. But he commands us to obey the laws of the land so…

David: Only if that’s the people’s choice. See, the first choice was‚ When you make a covenant, the first covenant you always make with God is that you’ll obey God. If you choose now to obey someone besides God, he’ll always let you, but it always takes you down to a lower level. It’s what- ever your focus is on. If it’s on you, he’ll let you go to the telestial level. If your focus is on others, he’ll let you go to the terrestrial. But if your focus is on God, he’ll always take you to the Celestial program.

Caller: Then, who wanted it organized according to the laws of

David The church members did.

Caller: The church members did.

Mike: You’ll find, caller, if you were to go back into church history that there were like 75 or 90 people already baptized before the church was organized on April 6. They were baptized into the Church of Christ.

Caller: Then they were rebaptized into the church

David: into the church that was functioning according to the laws of the state of New York.

Caller: So, the church that was organized April 6, that’s the date we quote as the organization of the church. What level is that at?

David: It’s probably telestial. Let’s rephrase this from how your Heavenly Father views it. He views it as Here’s Babylon – Babylon is set up as a series of governments. If you want to go live according to the laws of Babylon, do you think that Babylon is functioning in a telestial world or a terrestrial.

Caller: Telestial

David: OK, the city of Enoch started functioning on a terrestrial level. Enoch went out and said, Here I am. I came where you sent me. Now, what do you want me to do? The Lord had him start building a city and He said, Everyone who comes, you let them help you. Enoch built up this city. Now, the armies that came against Enoch weren’t what you call armies like Saddam Hussein coming and taking over Kuwait. They were first let’s say, officials who came and said, Look, the reason your paving your streets in gold is because you’re not paying taxes to us. You’re not submitting to our laws of the land. And Enoch said, I’m not doing what you want me to do; I’m doing what God wants me to do. So now, they would send martials and say, Here we have subpoenas and they couldn’t serve the subpoenas so now more of them come.

Caller: What do you mean they couldn’t serve the subpoenas.

David: You can’t have people who are living there in a sense out on the desert but it’s in your county, it’s in your state, not live your laws, because if they won’t submit to your authority, then you’ve got to go straighten them out. If you can’t straighten them out, then you’re going to have a lot of other people that are going to say, We don’t have to do what you say either. We’re going to go do what God wants us to do. That’s when the army came against Enoch. Where those who said, Look, you’ve got to now pay taxes to us. You’ve got to submit to all our laws and all our regulations. In essence that’s when the church in 1830 said, We want to do that. Now, if you say that to your Heavenly Father, is he going to let you?

Mike: You mean its like saying I want a king and he’ll let you have it, if that’s the level you want to go.

David: He’ll always do that.

Mike: Caller, you mentioned baptism and you were asking was your baptism a telestial level of baptism? Is that the question?

Caller: I was confused because I thought I belonged to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I didn’t know how that was different from the Church of Christ, because I thought that was his church.

David: It depends on what level you’re talking about.

Caller: But he has different levels of churches.

David: Well, sure. In Revelations, it talks about 7 levels. John the Beloved talks about 7 levels of churches.

Caller: Then why are we taught that there is only one true church?

David: That’s a belief system. OK If I were to ask you if there is one church. Then in D&C 76 when they mention those who are celestial are focused on who? The Father is the one who presides over them. They are members of the Church of Enoch and members of the Church of the Firstborn. What churches do you think those are?

Mike: Well, they’re different than the one we’re in

David: Because the Father is presiding over them. Who is presiding over your church?

Caller: Well, Jesus Christ, I believe.

David: Have you met him?

Caller: No

David: I have.

Caller: I thought he’s the head of this church.

David: If he was, would you see him at a General Conference?

Mike: We’d all hope so, wouldn’t we/?

David: I’ve seen him preside at every meeting dealing with the Church of the First Born. He’s been present at every one of them.

Caller: Well, we attend his temple.

David: Have you seen him there?

Caller: I haven’t, but I know he’s been there. There have been instances recorded and it says the House of the Lord right on it. It’s his house. That’s what we are taught.

David: If you were in his house, don’t you think there’d be a lot of people that would testify of him.

Caller: You’re saying he’s not there.

David: Let’s ask this: If we were in a court of law and we had to testify of something, what could you testify of whether he was there or not?

Caller: Well I know I haven’t seen him at this point in my life. So, I couldn’t testify that he was there, but that doesn’t mean he wasn’t there.

David: That’s true. Let’s find someone who has

Caller: OK. Well, I know Lorenzo Snow saw him.

David: I believe that. Lorenzo Snow saw him, so did Lorenzo Snow testify of that.

Caller: To his daughter he did.

David: Who else?

Caller: I don’t know.

Mike: I think he actually told that story to a few people. It was his daughter

Caller: That’s who through the tradition we hear her version, but I don’t know who else.

Mike: I think what Dave is saying here is that when a person has that experience, and witnesses that, they are a witness of what happened and they testify of that making them a testifier.

David: Like Paul.

Mike: Yes, Paul testified.

David: Here’s Moroni. He’ll be talking about the Gentiles and how much he loves his brethren. He says, I have met this Jesus and I have walked and talked with him as one man talketh with another. The reason he is telling you that is because he just got through saying, “I’m testifying to you and you’re blood is not going to be on my garments because I’m telling you I’ve walked and talked with him as one man talketh with another and now I’m telling you to seek this Jesus.”

Caller: OK Well, that’s what we’re taught too. That’s the whole purpose of the church I thought.

David: Did Abraham testify that he walked and talked with the Lord?

Caller: I can’t remember.

David: Oh, yes he did. So did Enoch. Did the brother of Jared testify that he saw the Lord.

Caller: Yes, he did.

David: Now, in Ether 12:17- 20 there were many whose faith was so exceedingly strong even before Christ came who could not be kept from within the veil but truly saw with their eyes the things which they had beheld with the eye of faith and they were glad. We’ve seen that one of these was the brother of Jared. Many people exercised this faith.

Caller: He was in a cloud

David: If that’s where Jesus is, that’s where you’re going to meet him.

Mike: Face to face actually is quite a bit different.

David: OK. Let’s go back to chapter 4. It starts out where Moroni is describing what the brother of Jared saw. He actually met the Lord, personally, face to face. And he wrote it all down. And Moroni is now sealing up Starting with verse 6, The Lord said unto me They shall go forth unto the Gentiles We’re the Gentiles. The Gentiles are the ones this book was written for. It shall not go forth (what – the sealed part of the gold plates describing what the brother of Jared had seen) shall not go forth to the Gentiles until the day they shall repent of their iniquity and become clean before the Lord. In that day that they exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them, the things which the brother of Jared saw. What do you think that would be? Himself

Caller: Well, he saw the Lord.

David: Even to the unfolding of all my revelations saith Jesus Christ. Jesus is now going to tell you who he is. If you just exercise faith, I’ll show you everything the brother of Jared saw.

Caller: I assume it would been a lot like what Nephi saw.

David: That’s exactly why Nephi…

Caller: The beginning to the end.

David: I was shown exactly the same revelation. – beginning to end – the exact same way. If someone says, you don’t need to meet the Lord. Now here’s the Lord saying that you do. In the next verse (verse 8) He that will contend against the word of the Lord (what word – him telling you that you need to meet him) let him be accursed and He that shall deny these things let him be accursed for unto them will I show no greater things, He that believeth these things which I have spoken, him will I visit with the manifestations of my spirit. Why is he saying spirit?

Caller: It’s because it’s before he was born

David: Sure. Now what’s the very next part of that sentence? “And he shall know and bear record.” What do you think I’m doing right now? I’m bearing record that I’ve seen him and that I’ve walked and talked with him and I testify that and you need to. This is the time, in your probationary state right now, this is the time for you to prepare to meet God.

Caller: If you die without seeing him, does that mean that you don’t get to go to the Celestial Kingdom?

David: Do you think there is some other way that you can get to the Father?

Caller: I don’t know. That’s what we are taught.

David: If someone gives you a list of things to do and you do all of them, will that get you to the Celestial kingdom or does Jesus say that “I am the way to the Father. There is no way but by me.” What do you think that means – that there’s some other way you’re going to get there? No. You have to do it with him. That’s faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. What’s the first principle of the gospel in your church?

Caller: Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

David: If you do that, what happens to you? Right here, he just described it.

Caller: There are many levels of faith. We are learning faith all the time.

David: This level is that you meet him face to face. When Ezra Taft Benson took over as president of the church, the first thing he said was that the whole church was under condemnation, quoting D&C and he said the whole church is still under condemnation. Why? Because they haven’t done the covenants that are in the Book of Mormon. This is a covenant right here with Jesus. He’s making a covenant with you. This is what you need to do. If you don’t do it, you’re not living this covenant and that’s why the church is under condemnation. They went under condemnation when they said, We don’t even want to be in a church called the Church of Christ. We want to change it to the church of the latter-day saints. We want to get rid of the persecution. Jesus said, If you come and follow me, they’ll persecute you the same way they did me.

Caller: Why are we taught that we can get to the Celestial kingdom by being members of this church and by doing what we’re commanded to do. It’s a step by step process.

David: That’s some other way. That’s trying to enter the Celestial kingdom some other way, isn’t it?

Mike: Have we helped you out caller with your questions?

Caller: It disturbs me.

David: Then you might as well change the first principle to faith in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Caller: But the church teaches faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

David: They teach it, but who does it? and it says right here, If you‚ “I will visit you with the manifestations of my spirit and he shall know and bear record.” Lorenzo Snow bore record Now you tell me who else has?

Caller: Uhh

David: There’s a difference between knowing about Jesus and knowing Jesus and if you’ll turn to John 17:3 it’ll say, this is life eternal to know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent. I know about Bill Clinton but I don’t know him. I know Jesus. I know him personally. I’ve walked and talked with him. I’m telling you, he’d love to walk and talk with you. Draw near unto Him and he’ll draw near unto you. Ask. Knock. And the door will be opened. It’s really that simple. But if you don’t believe it. If you contend with his own words, saying this is what you have to do OK. Let’s go to another place. Go to 2 Nephi and let’s find out what he’s going to tell you here. In about 4 chapters he tells you 3 times the same steps. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism by water and then cometh the remission of your sins by fire and the Holy Ghost. That’s verse 17 of 2 Nephi 31. Then you’re in this straight and narrow path which leads to eternal life. You’ve entered in by the gate. You’ve done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son. What are the command- ments of the Father and Son? Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism, receive the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost will do what now? Jump to chapter 32. Let’s start with verse 3. Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost, wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I’ve said unto you feast upon the words of Christ, for behold the words of Christ will tell you all things what you should do. Let’s jump to [verse] 5. For behold again I say unto you, if you will enter in by the way and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things that you should do. Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ. and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself to you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do. I did that. He manifested himself unto me in the flesh and I saw him and walked and talked with him and everything he said to me, I observed to do.

Caller: So did he command you right away to start telling‚ testify of him?

David: No, it was 3 years before he told me I had to. in a sense of typing up a testimony of 2 pages and passing it around. But then he made me stand on a street corner in Portland, Oregon and pass it out to everybody that came along. But prior to that time, I told anybody that he told me to tell.

Caller: We’ve had many prophets and I know whereof all of them saying that they have testified of Jesus that they’ve seen the same kind of things

David: I’m not aware of any of them saying that. I went and talked to Bruce R. McConkie 3 times and I asked him all 3 times, Have you ever met the Lord Jesus Christ? and he said No. I said, Do you know anybody that Has? And he said No. I said, How can you be a special witness of Christ? And he said, In a Telestial church, on a telestial level, if the Holy Ghost testifies to me that Jesus is the Christ, then I can testify on a telestial level about Jesus. I can’t testify that I know him but I can testify that he lives. And he says, Look how many books I’ve written on the Messiah. But he says, I can’t preach anything more than faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism and receive the Holy Ghost because everything else, you need to get from the Holy Ghost. That’s the path to Jesus. Then Jesus is the path to the Father. That’s what he told me.

Caller: Well, that doesn’t give much people hope. If they die without seeing the Lord.

David: Sure it does. Let’s turn to D&C 93 verse 1 and let’s see how much hope you can have. Verily, thus saith the Lord, it shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me and calleth on my name and obeyeth my voice and keepeth my commandments shall see my face and know that I am

Caller: What I’m saying is that it still doesn’t give much hope for a lot of people because most people don’t receive Christ in this life

David: But who should you have hope in?

Caller: In Christ.

David: OK The reason you don’t feel much hope is because your hope is in something other than him. It takes faith in him to get this to happen. It’s not faith in something in an organization, it’s not faith in mortal men It’s faith in someone who overcame mortality who is resurrected. That’s why the focus has to be on him. You can’t focus on someone who isn’t resurrected. You can’t focus on someone who is going to die because they don’t know the way. Jesus does. Jesus knows the way to the Father. There’s no other way you’re going to get there.

Caller: She pointed out that Mike and David are not members of the church.

Mike: Told of his gratitude for the church. Dave went on

David: Five stake missions.

Mike: So how many years were you on stake missions?

David: Probably 12 or 13 somewhere in there, but I’m just guessing.

Mike: Keith, you went to Bolivia on your mission. The church was wonderful to teach us how to grow and develop and come unto Christ. It did its job.

David: It’s being the schoolmaster to point people, guide people to Jesus.

Caller: Are you ministers? What do you do for work?

Mike: I would classify ourselves as full time laborers of God. That takes in a whole bunch of areas for work.

David: I frame houses. I’m a carpenter at least 8-10 hours a day 5 to 6 days a week.

Caller: Are you with the Church of the First Born?

David: No. Jesus is the one who officiates and does everything with the Church of the First Born. He doesn’t assign anyone else to do anything on that.

Caller: There is a church called the Church of the First Born

Mike: We’re not affiliated with that.

Caller: Are you with the Church of Christ?

Mike: No. I’m familiar with who you are talking about there.

David: We’re not with any church organized by man

Caller: And you’re not members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

David: I was excommunicated. All my experiences I had in 85 I reported to my bishop every week. He agreed with most things. My stake president came over and talked with me in May of 85 and he spent 5 hours in my home and he said that when he was in seminary, his seminary teacher had taught him that all these things that had been happening to me needed to happen to him in this life. He needed to have the ministering of angels. He needed to have communion with the Church of the First Born and with the righteous and just. He needed these things to be happening to him in this life. That’s what he believed when his seminary teacher taught him.

Caller: Are you a convert?

David: I was born in the church. I was raised in the church. I grew up in Safford, AZ. Spencer Kimball was stake president when I was born. I graduated from seminary

Caller: Where did Christ appear to you and are you a part of a polygamy group?

David: No. I’ve never been a part of a polygamy group. I do have a wife and nine children – eight of them are living. I’ve still got 2 of my children at home. The others are married. I have 14 grandchildren.

Caller: Have you ever been to the temple?

David: I was an officiator in the temple for 2 1/2 years. I’ve been a veil worker in eleven of the Mormon temples

Caller: Did the stake president explain why this happened to you?

David: He had been on a full time mission and he had got married in the temple And within a few months he was put in the bishopric. Five years later, he was then made the bishop and 6 years after that, he was released as a bishop and put in as the first counselor in the stake presidency. He was that for 11 years and then he was made the stake president 2 months prior to him sitting there and talking to me.. He said that he’s been a seminary teacher for 18 years and that none of these things had happened to him, therefore, they can’t be happening to me. He said, I’m going to excommunicate you so that no one will listen to you and no one will follow you.

Caller: She asked David if he had used the test to detect a minister of Satan. She said, That’s not in your testimony, therefore, you’ve been deceived.

David: The first vision I had was Jesus taking me by the hand and showing me in 3 visions that night, the exact same thing. That’s him physically taking me by my hand.

Caller: Well, I don’t think that that happened, sir. You’ve been deceived.

Caller: You were talking about how we needed to have the perfect faith. What would your definition of faith be?

David: Perfect faith is in Jesus Christ. Jesus is saying that if you had faith in him, He would reveal all the manifestations. That was in Ether 4.

Caller: If you have faith in Jesus Christ, you could not have seen him.

David: Until you exercise faith in him, you’re not going to be able to see him.

Caller: From what you’ve said here, you’re not working off faith any more.

David: That’s true.

Caller: You’re working off knowledge.

David: What we were discussing was what it takes to be able to meet him in the first place and what it takes is faith.

Caller: I’ve had a lot of experiences, not quite of that scope or magnitude, but frankly, I find what you’re doing a little crass. Unless, you’re going to come out and proclaim yourself a prophet of Jesus Christ, what you’re doing is wrong. People have seen things, heard things, I’ll just quote one – Luke 2:19 Mary kept all these things and pondered them in her heart. She didn’t get on a radio show and talk about what she had seen.

David: But if the Lord had told her to testify of him, what do you think she Would have done? If Jesus specifically told her to testify to everyone and told her specifically how to do it, what do you think Mary would do?

Mike: When Stephen was being stoned, he said, I saw God the Father and Jesus Christ. So what is he doing?

Caller: He’s testifying of Jesus Christ. I’m not saying that people have not testified of Christ throughout the ages. But when people testify of a sure knowledge of Jesus Christ, they are more than just a person walking around and talking They are declaring themselves I don’t think you can find an example in the scriptures where someone has declared seeing Jesus Christ who is not a prophet.

David: What is your definition? Joseph Smith’s definition of prophet is anyone who has a testimony of Jesus.

Caller: That’s not what he said. He said the definition of a prophet is one who has a sure knowledge of Jesus Christ, not a testimony.

David: No, he said the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy

For Part 1 go HERE

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Immortals Among Us?

March 11, 2017 Joseph Dewey

March 7, 2017

Immortals Among Us?

(Note: I wrote this for an alternative LDS group, but all readers here should find it interesting)

Joseph Smith gave an interesting, but little discussed method of detecting true and false messengers. He said:

“When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you. If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand.

“If he be the spirit of a just man made perfect he will come in his glory; for that is the only way he can appear– Ask him to shake hands with you, but he will not move, because it is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to deceive; but he will still deliver his message.

“If it be the devil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands he will offer you his hand and you will not feel anything; you may therefore detect him. These are three grand keys whereby you may know whether any administration is from God.” D&C 129:4-9

This seems to be an interesting and somewhat cut and dried method of determining a true visitation. The strange thing about it is that I do not recall anyone in standard LDS literature who has claimed to apply this test since Joseph was here on the earth. I have encountered many associated with the church who have claimed to see Jesus, God, Joseph Smith, angels and other beings, but none have applied the handshake test.

Why do you suppose that is?

Several reasons. In many cases what is claimed to be a visitation was not a visitation at all but a vision seen by the inner eye of the beholder. You cannot shake physical hands with a vision or something from a dream state.

In other cases where the person does seem to be seeing a real visitation perhaps he is afraid to ask for a handshake. Seeing a spiritual being is good enough and the guy just doesn’t want to risk spoiling the experience.

Then there are lots of non Mormons who have spiritual encounters who have never read of Joseph Smith’s advice and the test does not even occur to them.

I have encountered a couple Fundamentalist types, way out of the mainstream LDS, who claimed to have claimed visitation from resurrected beings. I do not recall them saying they applied the handshake test, but they did claim physical contact.

One of them had writings so uninspiring that I figured his accounts were pure fiction and the other had a history of deception so I wrote him off as creative fiction. No prayer was necessary for these two, just studying them out in my mind was enough.

There are numerous accounts by non Mormons of encounters with physical immortals. One of the most popular ones is a set of books called Teachings of the Masters of the Far East. These explorers claim to have encountered numerous immortals in India, physically interacted with them and received numerous teachings that register well with the soul.

One can read these books free at this site:

LINK

Another interesting claim is found in he autobiography of Richard Kieninger called The Ultimate Frontier. He claimed contacts by several immortals who gave him numerous teachings and an assignment to gather people together to prepare for end times.

He only gathered a few and his apocalyptic predictions did not materialize

I found this character interesting because of some similarities to Joseph Smith, including a gathering to build a city in Illinois. For an interesting read, check out his book here:

LINK

Two others who claimed contact with physical immortals were Helena P. Blavatsky and Alice A. Bailey.

The depth of their teachings give evidence to contact of a high order of intelligence.

Then we have the story of a 5000 year old Immortal named Babaji brought to light in Paramahansa Yogananda’s work, Autobiography of a Yogi. In addition, other stories come out of India of supposed immortals there.

So we have numerous accounts of immortals on the planet which gives evidence that there may be much more going on in this planet than taught in Sunday School.

Scripture gives interesting evidence of this stating, “all are under sin, except those which I have reserved unto myself, holy men that ye know not of.” D&C 49:8

And who are these “holy men that ye know not of”?

Could they be immortals walking the earth unrecognized?

March 8, 2017

The Key to Manifestation

There are two approaches to seeking entrance into the highest spiritual realms. One that is popular these days in the LDS remnant movement is to seek some sort of personal visitation from Jesus as a sign their calling and election is sure.

If this approach has, as its main intent to receive a sign, then the seeker may be entering a problem area and be in danger of illusion. After all, Jesus spoke these words:

‘A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign. Matt 16:4

When Joseph Smith had his first vision he was not seeking any sign, but merely asking for greater knowledge.

The seeking of greater knowledge is the real key to true spiritual manifestations, void of deception. After all, Joseph said that “a man is saved no faster than he gains knowledge.”

Jesus gave an important key that needs to guide the true servant. He said.

“Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

“Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.” Matt 24:42-47

The word “watch” here comes from the Greek GRĒGOREŌ which literally means to “rouse yourself from sleep, or to be awake or aware.”

The accepted servant therefore must be eternally vigilant and seek to serve his fellow men and his God. And what should be his attitude?

“Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.” Matt 16:24-25

Seeking a sign that you will be exalted in heaven is seeking to save your eternal life. Of course we all want that as well as to continue our physical life, but one who truly wants to be one with Christ and an accepted servant must not put saving himself first. He must put all things out of his mind except for serving his Lord, which in turn means serving his fellow men and women.

This quote gives the attitude required:

“If you follow the highest you know there will come a time when you will be visited by a Presence, either visible or invisible. It will come at a time that you least expect it and a time when perhaps you feel the least prepared spiritually, but it will come.

“To dream and wish for the experience will only delay the happening. But if you take the highest you know and go forward in the vineyard of the Master and serve with no end in sight, in season and out of season, in good times and bad. If you serve with love in the dark of night with the same strength as in the light of day, if you continue with loving service through the fiery darts of hate, malice and betrayal and above all if it appears that even your Master and your God seem to completely ignore you as if you do not exist…

“Through all this you will continue to serve with the highest you know. You continue even if God himself seems to be your enemy putting every obstacle possible in your path and laughing at you as you stumble and fall. You rise up and continue. The time comes that it will not seem to matter to you any more if friends, God or the Masters approve of you or not. It matters not if you are some great chosen one or are looked upon by the Master as the least and most needy of the brethren. You will now serve for the sake of selfless love alone because the need is out there and you sense the need.

“When this stage is reached in your being one of the Great Ones will take notice and speak: “Behold, the servant! He has become as one of us. Let us invite him into the circle of higher friendship, brotherhood and service.

“But even here the invitation comes not as you expected. All your expectations are shattered and soon replaced by newer ones and the groping in the dark is replaced by walking the path with vision. The reward for your selfless service is sight and as you see the path ahead your heart is filled with joy for that which you see is not what you imagined, but more than you imagined.”

This gift to the servant is best described in this scripture:

“Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.” Rev 3:20

How this promise is fulfilled will be revealed in a powerful manner to those who are prepared to lose their life in service as guided by the Spirit.