March 11, 2017
Visits from Immortals, Part 2
Notes from taped KSTAR David Whitmer Interview 11/15/95
Here is the second installment of teachings, thoughts and experiences of David Whitmer. As far as I know this is all that is available from this person
David: I mentioned that to Mike Watson up at the Church Office Building and he pulled out a Teachings of the Prophet and read it right there and said that I don’t believe there’s anyone here that knows that it actually says that.
Mike: We’ve got two callers on. They must have dropped off. So what did Mike Watson – He was just confirming what you said?
David: He was amazed that it was specifically for the keys to the Patriarchal family and that I had been in that Patriarchal family until it reached a point to where he could then turn me over to the Lord Jesus Christ, which is what he did about 2 years later.
Mike: What kind of step was that? Why would there be a change there? Was that like a progression for you?
David: Everything he had taught me or showed me or counseled me, was in a sense training me into the Patriarchal way of life, and once I was completely into it, then he took me to the Lord and released his sealing to me and that’s when the Lord then sealed me to His Son. And this would have been about when? March’ 89
Mike: Is this something you see that every person has to go through? Is that some kind of mandatory thing you’re talking about?
David: I’d say there is only one way to the Father and that is by Jesus, the one who has the tokens in his hand. He’s the one who introduced me to his Father. My testimony is about Jesus and His father and how they can work in individual lives.
Caller: Challenged. That’s too sacred to talk about. Why are you discussing these things?
David: Because I was told to. Otherwise, I wouldn’t.
Caller: Was that told by an angel? Who told you to share this?
David: Jesus’s Father himself told me that I needed to testify of the things that have happened with me.
Caller: I just wanted to get an idea of David’s feelings toward the church at this point.
David: I’ve always loved the church. I was always in the church until 1985. I don’t have any problem with the church. I think that everything the church is doing is good. There’s a purpose in everything. I think the purpose of the church is to bring people to Christ or point people towards Christ. I don’t have any problem with the authority in the church or what they’re doing.
Caller: He was excommunicated about 10 years ago?
David: Yes, It was June 1985
Caller: I’m wondering why he wouldn’t want to be rebaptized.
David: I’d be tickled to if the Lord had any reason or just told me to.
Caller: I’m curious. If this is the Lord’s church on earth, why He wouldn’t have him be a part of it in that way?
David: The church right now on the earth is a Telestial church dealing in a Telestial world. It functions in the Aaronic Priesthood with the Melchizedek Priesthood. Patriarchal Priesthood doesn’t function within a church, not a Telestial one anyway. It functions within the Church of the Firstborn. Its authority comes from God, it’s administered to by God. It’s dealing with the authority that a father has in his family. If home teachers or even a General authority comes to your home, you would preside as the father. It’s that authority that presides even if any high office of the church comes to your home. You’re functioning in your family, which is a higher organization than the church is. When you get into Patriarchal Priesthood, you’re doing what your Heavenly Father, which is your patriarch, tells you to do with His authority. It’s a complete different organization than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The LDS church is designed to bring people who are outside of the Kingdom of God, into the Kingdom of God and point them to Christ. But Jesus is still functioning and He’s waiting to talk to anyone that’s willing to listen.
Caller: What line of work.
David: I was a carpenter, working construction
Caller: I enquired of Mark E. Peterson in 1979 about the Coyle Dream Mine She read the letter Mark E Peterson had sent her in response. We strongly advise our members to have nothing to do with that mine. We do not believe it was an ancient Nephite mine, Nor do we believe that the 3 Nephites came and guided Br. Coyle in the direction of the mine. For 50 years. it has never produced the gold that is indicated that it should, nor the platinum, nor the silver. You know that Br. Coyle was excommunicated for insubordination Under the direction of the First Presidency going back into the days of Heber J. Grant, we have all been told to avoid this situation which we believe to have been a spurious, lacking authenticity, counterfeit, false inducement
Mike: I can tell you that there were several General Authorities that did have stock in the mine. There were a lot of supporters of John Coyle. There were also those who didn’t want any thing to do with it. What you look for in anything like this is – What is God telling you to do? You do what God tells you to do even if it goes contrary to what you’ve been taught.
David: Two Nephites showed me exactly what they had showed Bishop Coyle. A third Nephite showed me what he had showed Bishop Coyle and that’s something Bishop Coyle had never told anyone.
Mike: You never met Coyle?
David: No.
Caller: He’d heard that Spencer W. Kimball had anointed David. He wondered what year.
David: In1961 when he was an apostle and I was 19, Elder Kimball gave me a blessing in his office. My dad got me the appointment. My dad was my bishop and Spencer Kimball was my Stake President. He was a family friend because my grandfather and Spencer grew up together.
Caller: Have you used the test in D&C 129?
David: Lots of times. It works.
David: Faith is the result of belief. You have to believe first and then you can exercise faith in it. What you believe, you don’t necessarily have to do, but with faith, you are doing something – it’s like an action to what you believe. If your belief is that church is what is going to save you then that becomes true for you, but if your belief is that you need to have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, then Jesus Christ becomes what you exercise your faith in. It’s that faith that brings you to Jesus through how God works in your life until you yourself meet him face to face. Everyone testified of meeting with the Lord, walking and talking with him as one man talks with another. That takes faith to reach to that point. The Br. of Jared exercised faith and he was able to see the Lord. But if your belief system is such that you don’t need to see the Lord, then the chances are that will be true for you. If your faith is in something else besides Jesus then whatever that something else is, will become the most important thing in your life. That will be what your faith is exercised in and that will become true for you.
Mike: You’re putting something in between you and God.
David: You always do. If it isn’t God that’s telling you what to do specifically within your life right now, then what is it that’s telling you what to do. If it isn’t the Lord Jesus Christ, then what is it you’ve got your faith in.
Mike So when you started to exercise faith, and to let go of all these other things, is that when you started progressing?
Daivd: One of the keys is when you finally ask the Lord, “What’s keeping me from you?” And then you’re shown that anything that’s in your heart, anything that your desires and your heart is on other than the Lord is what’s keeping you from the Lord.
Mike: So are you saying that you don’t need an organization to find the Lord?
David: Well, the Lord has talked to a lot of people that are not in organizations. But he has to some that are. Once he talks to you and gets you on His program, going back to a school would be a little like going back to kindergarten or elementary school. In a sense, you’ve graduated to college.
Mike: Joseph Smith said that a man should seek to have his calling and election made sure, which basically is talking with the Lord face to face
David: 24 hours a day. Speak to him.
Mike: After that happens, what’s your responsibility then?
David: To do whatever he tells you to do,
Mike: Does it matter whether it is the Lord or the Father or who’s taking to you?
David: Well, if the Lord is only going to tell you what His Father’s told Him to say, then it’s the same as if the Father is saying it.
Mike: In the Book of Mormon, during the first 420 years, there is no organized religion or organization. It’s Patriarchal, I would say.
Caller: You were talking about anything getting in the way of your relationship with the Savior. I guess your thought is that sometimes the church is one of those things that might possibly get in the way of a relationship with the Savior.
David: Only if that’s more important to you than a relationship with the Lord.
Caller: Are you saying that you don’t need any ordinations or organizations in order to return to the Savior?
David: Well, the organization is actually set up by our Heavenly Father and if you read D&C 76, it will give you a whole lot of organization in the Celestial Kingdom where the Father presides and the Father initiates. The Father has the ordinations done on a lot of different levels. They can do it in the Church of Enoch level, they can do it on the Church of Christ level, they can do it on the Church of the Firstborn level. And that’s all organized and controlled by the Father. Everything is done using His authority which is Patriarchal.
Caller: In the Church of the First Born, do they need baptism or temple work?
David: Both I’ve done both in that organization.
Caller: Are they necessary in that Church of the First Born?
David: Everything that the Father says is necessary. If the Father doesn’t say it, then it’s not. It’s His organization and He’s in charge.
Caller: So is the prophet of the LDS church, is He the Lord’s prophet for the Church of the Firstborn?
David: No, not the Church of the Firstborn. But he is on the Church of Christ level. Why would you need a prophet to be in charge of your Heavenly Father when your Heavenly Father is in charge of it?
Caller: So you don’t think it’s necessary to be part of the Church of Jesus Christ because you’ve attained to a higher level?
David: The LDS church isn’t functioning in a Celestial sphere. It isn’t functioning in a Celestial organization. It’s functioning in a Telestial world and it’s a telestial organization in that world., And if it became a Terrestrial organization then it would be functioning just like the city of Enoch is right now.
Caller: Is there a leader of the Terrestrial organization on this earth right now?
David: Yes, His name is Jesus. He’s in charge and He ministers to the Terrestrial Kingdom. If you’re functioning in a Terrestrial level, then this is the one that’s ministering to you. If you’re functioning at a Telestial level, then it’s the Holy Ghost is ministering to you. If you’re functioning and actually living in a Celestial level, then it’s your Heavenly Father who is ministering to you.
Caller: So as members of the Church of Jesus Christ, we are members of the Telestial organization, but there is a higher organization that we could be a part of
David: That’s called the Church of Enoch and it’s explained to you in D&C 76.
Caller: But that means we don’t have to be a part of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.?
David: No. It’s kind of like you don’t need to be in kindergarten if you’re in high school.
Caller: Do you need the ordinance of baptism in the Church of Enoch?
David: I was baptized and confirmed into the Church of Enoch. Joseph Smith Sr. is the one who confirmed me. Joseph Smith Jr. baptized me directly, in person as a resurrected being.
Mike: The earth is moving from a Telestial existence to a Terrestrial existence. If we don’t focus on the one who is the head of that Terrestrial world.
David: You’ll be burned at His coming. Anyone living Telestial law will be burned when Jesus comes. Now is the time to decide which level you want to live.
Mike: Most people recognize that the Terrestrial world is a translation state. There’s not a lot of people around who know translated beings which would indicate that they are not living on a Terrestrial level, let alone Celestial. Basically, we are in the Telestial level, struggling to get into at least Terrestrial and then Celestial. But as you see it, what is the advantage of being here now in this particular time frame?
David: Being here now, you can choose to live Celestial law and to live a Celestial life right now. In every dispensation, the Lord has always offered the highest level first. And when anyone refuses the highest level, then they are given a lower level.
Mike: Are you saying that during Joseph Smith’s time, he was given the Celestial level?
David: Yes. Absolutely
Mike: Was he also given an opportunity for the Terrestrial level?
David: When they wouldn’t live the Celestial level, then they were given the Terrestrial and when they wouldn’t live that, they were given the Telestial. That’s why they had to be driven out each time so they could go down to a lower level.
Mike: You mean, they actually blended in better as they went down?
David: Right. Until they became where you couldn’t tell between them and Babylon.
Caller: He thought David was wrong about the analogy to kindergarten and high school and that the Lord is leading the LDS church. If you’re not trying to be part of the LDS church then you need to go back to Primary.
David: Christ is giving the prophet everything that he can get the people to live. The Lord is working with everyone on whatever level they are on. And it’s their choice as to what level they want.
Caller: Joseph Smith saw angels, etc. but he didn’t separate himself from the Church.
David: When Joseph met the Lord, he did what the Lord told him to do. If you meet the Lord, you’ll do what he Lord tells you to do. If the church is already organized, then why would the Lord have me or someone else go reorganize another church. He doesn’t need to because the Lord’s church is already functioning.
Caller: But Joseph didn’t separate himself
David: I didn’t separate myself from the church.
Caller: But you’re placing yourself above the church. I think this is the error you have. You have many good ideas, but you miss the mark.
David: Who do you think the mark is if it isn’t the Lord Jesus Christ.
Caller: Christ and the church will help us.
David: That’s true. The church helped me. That is the purpose of the church – so you don’t miss the mark and the mark is Jesus himself, in person.
Caller: Asked about David’s excommunication and said that the ordinances David had received were no more effect..
David: That’s true. The church ordinances no longer have effect.
Caller: Your baptism is null and void.
David: The baptism I received in the church is null and void
Caller: By the power of the priesthood.
David: By the power of the priesthood that the church has. Yes
Caller: You know, I go to church and I work real hard and I try my darndest to do my home teaching I try my darndest to go work at the welfare services whenever our stake is called to. I do these things that I’ve been told to do and it amazes me that you just have such a greater calling that you don’t have to do those type of things
David: No, I didn’t say that at all.
Caller: Do you do home teaching?
David: I do home teaching, yes.
Caller: Do you sustain?
David: Yes.
Caller: Then why aren’t you a member of the church?
David: If the church hadn’t excommunicated me, I’d still be a member.
Caller: But you’re not sustaining them
David: But I did. I still do. Let me ask you a question. If the Lord Jesus Christ talked to you in person, what would you do?
Caller: I believe I wouldn’t be casting my pearls before the swine.
David: If Jesus told you to now testify of what he’s done in your life, then what would you do?
Caller: He would never tell me to leave the church.
David: He didn’t tell me to leave the church. My Stake President did.
Caller: He’s called of God and he’s over you.
David: That’s right.
Caller: He has the authority to do that.
David: He has authority in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Who do you think officiates in the Church of Enoch and the Church of the First Born?
Caller: I’ve never been taught that. That’s not important to my salvation.
David: That’s true. If that’s what you believe, it won’t be important to you if you don’t believe it will be.
Caller: I don’t know how to live a Celestial life here. I have a hard enough time doing my home teaching and doing my lessons every week. I have my own children to raise I don’t have time for that other kind of stuff. It’s amazing to me that you have that kind of time. Joseph Smith taught people close to him. It blows me away that you are talking about these kinds of things on the radio. The caller thought David ought to go to the Stake President and get back into church and then said, I’ve never heard any prophet talk about the church of Enoch.
David: That’s because they don’t officiate in the church of Enoch.
Caller: I’m surprised that we would hear it from you and not a prophet.
David: If the prophet was in charge of the church of Enoch, he’d probably talk about it. But if he’s not in charge of the church of Enoch, who is?
Caller: You’re not in charge of the church of Enoch Jesus Christ is.
David: Joseph Smith Jr. technically is.
Caller: The prophet.
David: The prophet is doing what he can get the people to do
Caller: Is he involved in the church of Enoch as well?
David: I don’t know. Personally, he could be. But see, it’s on a personal basis. If you went to the prophet’s home, he as the father would preside in that family. He wouldn’t be using his prophet, seer and revelator keys of the church to function as a father in his family.
Caller: Do you have a family, sir?
David: Oh yes, I’ve got nine children.
Caller: Are they active in the church?
David: Not the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Caller: Are they active in that church?
David: The church of Enoch? Yes.
Caller: In other words, they’ve had their calling and election
David: Yes. You should seek 24 hours a day to have your calling and election made sure.
Caller: And they were able to make this decision themselves?
David: Oh, Absolutely. They’ve had visitations, ministering of angels .
Caller: They’ve had the temple ordinances?
David: Absolutely.
Caller: What message has Christ asked you to give those who have ears to hear?
David: The message is to believe in him and seek this Jesus, the one that’s going to lead you to the Father. Because if you don’t seek him now, you’re not going to be in the same process, getting into the millennium. Now is the time to seek this Jesus and to center on the Father. Now is the time that the hearts of the children should be turning to their fathers in heaven and now is the time that they’re focusing on you, their children. Now is the time to focus on God and find out what God wants you to do in your life.
Caller: Why isn’t this being taught? I understand that the church is an organization and that the gospel of Jesus Christ is eternal, but why isn’t this being taught in the quorums? Why aren’t we sticking with the essentials instead of worrying about
David Whitmer had been on the show 11/15. We got quite a bit of response from that. He consented to come back and share more of his insights.
Mike: We talked about your experiences with meeting the Lord and coming unto him. Let’s do a brief synopsis of your story and then let’s get into talking a little bit more of doctrinal information.
David: I was raised in the Mormon church. In 1985, I started receiving visions and revelations and went through a series of experiences – one of the visions was 3 times in one night seeing the destruction of Utah. Then I had an angel come and said that I was ready for re-baptism. My two grandfathers had passed away and appeared to me and told me that I needed to continue on my path and obtain the Patriarchal priesthood and seal into my Patriarchal family so they could progress where they were at. I’ve seen Moroni, Joseph Smith Jr. I was sealed into Joseph Smith Sr.’s patriarchal family. Over the next couple of years taught me and guided me and gave me revelation and then introduced me to the Lord. I then became Jesus’s patriarchalson; he became my patriarchal father. And that was in August of 88.
Mike: Are you aware of anybody else who has had that kind of experience or Were you aware of anybody who had been put into the patriarchal family of either Joseph Smith Sr. or Jesus Christ before it happened to you?
David: No. I didn’t even know very much about the patriarchal priesthood. At the time, I was teaching the high priests and 70’s in my ward as the instructor. I’d prepared a lesson and when I opened my mouth, out came Patriarchal priesthood and I taught them things that I’d never heard before, never seen.
Mike: Is that what you were taught when you were being led by Joseph Smith Sr. and Jesus Christ?
David: Right. Everything they teach you is about Patriarchal priesthood and the patriarchal order which is coming into the family of Christ. The city of Enoch went into this Patriarchal order. That’s why they were able to obtain what they obtained as a city.
Mike: I had a question. Did you notice a difference in the way you prayed or your attitude about prayer as these things started to happen? Was it more sincere? What started to kick this off?
David: It was actually was when I reached a stage of what they call a broken heart and contrite spirit. I’d gone through 2 1/2 years with my 2nd son who had gotten spinal meningitis He had it 3 times and pneumonia 13 times before he’d passed away. And in that time, I went through a quandary as to why there was a lack of faith. Faith is what heals and being raised in the church I thought that everyone had faith and everything you do is by faith but with all the blessings that my son received he never got better. And so I started to wonder or question as to what was faith. What was it about and how it actually functioned. Through this and the anguish that I went through, I reached a stage they call a broken heart and contrite spirit. And when that happened, that’s when all these things started happening. Right in the beginning they taught me that the true way to pray is in your heart. Don’t appear to be praying to others. Pray with uplifted hands. In my research I found that there were something like 12 places in the journal of discourses where they mentioned praying or singing with uplifted hands. And so I started to change the way I was doing things and I was more sincere, using faith, meaning I actually believed I was talking to God and that’s when all these things started happening.
Mike: So what would you give us as a definition of faith, based on your experience at that time?
David: Believing that God isn’t something in the future, but God is here now. Believing that he listens now, that he’s real. It’s not something you’re learning about. It’s someone you’re learning of right now. You’re believing in things unseen and first you have to believe before you can receive a witness. The Spirit can be waiting right there but until you, but until you believe or exercise faith there can be no witness by the Spirit.
Mike: As you were saying that, I was thinking of the time when Christ talks about actually, I believe it was in the area he was born and he talks about how he could do no miracles among them for they had no faith. It appeared to me that it takes two parties to create enough faith for something to actually happen. The people had to have enough faith and of course, Christ had faith. It was interesting that he could go to a place where he couldn’t do any miracles.
David: When he was my father, he told me that even those that he did heal as soon as they started to believe, for instance, a lame person, within a week or two, he would start to favor his leg again because his belief system was that he did have a leg that was weaker than the other. As soon as he started believing that again, it then returned to him. So, even some of the people he healed, actually returned to their former problem. And he says, he could have healed a lot more people if they’d have just exercised the slightest bit of faith.
Mike: What was that like while he was actually working with you? Was this a one on one, seeing with your natural eyes?
David: Right.
Caller: You mentioned that you saw the destruction of Utah 3 times in a vision What do you see as a destiny for this church as a whole? How will the redemption of Zion take place for us? When will we go back?
David: The destruction I saw was where Jesus says that he’s going to start by cleaning his house first. He’s going to begin by cleaning his house, meaning those that have the most are now going to go through a period that they’re going to have taken away from them everything that they thought was going to save them, and if their focus isn’t on Him, then everything they’ve focused on will be destroyed. That’s what he showed me.
Caller Will the church have a role in the redemption of Zion?
David: It would be better to say that it would be done from Jesus’s father’s program of the Patriarchal order. This is what is going to redeem Zion. Part of the cleansing process is to clean out everything that isn’t focused on Jesus and his father.
Caller: It’s always been my understanding that the Lamanites will redeem Zion and not us, but those of us who are willing will be included.
David: On kind of an assist basis.
Caller: Do you see any kind of a group here going back to Jackson County?
David: It isn’t a very large group. I talked to a shaman, a medicine man from the Souix nation and one of the things he told me was that (it was about 4 years ago when I talked to him) Jesus and Enoch had appeared to his tribal council 6 times in the past 4 years, giving them instructions on the things they needed to get prepared so that they could go back and build New Jerusalem. So, they’re already receiving instructions, those that are going to be the prime movers and shakers you might say.
Caller: I’m wondering about those of us here who want to be a part of that, how we can be a part of that? I have a question for you,
Mike. In the Hopi scriptures there is a chapter on the levels of light and that is written pretty much in first person with the I pronoun used quite a bit. I was wondering who wrote that. There’s no reference that I could find.
Mike: When I had first come across that a gal from Idaho who – she didn’t wish to leave her name – she told me that Mormon was the one who dictated that information. I talked to Dave a little bit about it and we had discussed this at length on a trip we took down to Lake Mead It was his opinion that it was probably the second of the three Nephites who was actually the one who dictated it. I’m not actually sure.
David: He could have been quoting Mormon.
Caller: It sounds like he may be making a prophecy. He talks about the church progressing along until it’s 160 years old (which is 5 years ago) and then a group beginning to come from the church and being persecuted by the church It sounds kind of like prophecy, but I wonder when it was written.
Mike: I believe it’s modern. It’s interesting because there’s not any formal organization that I’ve witnessed coming out from the church that’s doing that. It’s more of on a one-on- one individual basis working directly with God. Dave, what’s your opinion?
David: That’s exactly right. That is the group. Those that will focus on the Lord are then prepared. They’re the ones that will be taken out and go on into this Patriarchal order or the Father’s program.
Mike: There’s really no one leading it. It think it indicates that in the levels of light. There’s no real leadership among this group.
David: That’s because Jesus is the leader.
Mike: Caller, did you see the article in the Ogden Standard Examiner this past conference about the three men who appeared at Temple Square.
Caller: Yes, I did. Who were the three men?
David: They were men of God. Doing just what they were told to do and nothing more.
Mike: The way that they talked and the information they gave definitely would classify them in my book as men of God and of a very high level.
Caller: I didn’t get too much on what they said.
Mike: Well it talked about them speaking in the Adamic language, doing only the will of the Father, not condemning anybody. They weren’t condemning any church or organization. They were just there to perform certain tasks and I believe they went to the 4 corners, didn’t they?
David: They were sealing Temple Square for the return of the saints in seven years. And in the next paragraph the newspaper referred to the Olympics in the year 2002, which is 7 years.
Caller: One last question. Any information as to when the destruction will start here in Utah?
David: The only thing I’ve been told is that it will be now when it happens but they didn’t say when that would be They said, don’t focus on it. If you focus on it, with the idea that if fear motivates you in any aspect of your life, that fear will be what will then initiate the destruction in your own life. You should be operating out of faith, faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. If you focus that way, then there will be no fear.
Mike: If you look back at Alma and Amulek and those types, they had no fear. It didn’t matter what circumstances they were put in, they knew that God was going to protect them. The key now is to get to know God. well enough that you know he’s going to protect you, or if you go, it’s OK.
Caller: We all have a responsibility to come unto Christ and enter the Millennium, but the earth itself is doing the same thing. We’re coming to a focal point here and there will be a time where if you haven’t come unto Christ, there will be a force situation. When the earth goes through its change, those who aren’t prepared won’t be around.
David: Right. The earlier caller mentioned the levels of light. It explains the telestial, terrestial and celestial. Those that are Celestial will actually be prepared and they’ll miss the destruction because they’ll be above sickness, disesase, death and all those things. Those that are Terrestrial will get to experience the destruction but they will survive. Those that are Telestial won’t survive it.
Caller: You have the responsibility to choose one of those three levels before it starts or it’s going to drag you through it.
Mike: I think that’s what we saw happen to Noah. The earth went through a cleaning, it want through it’s baptism of water and then it’s going to go through a baptism of fire. but how many survived that particular event?
Caller: I have some concerns. I’m a returned missionary I’ve been taught from a young child that revelation is given according to the needs of the church and given in the hierarchy that the Lord has set up. Why would the Lord give someone revelation that’s going to have an impact on the whole church when that person is not in the leadership of the church?
David: Everything that the Lord has taught me and everything that I’ve received revelation wise, is strictly for me and my family. It relates to being the father of a family. If the president of the church came into your home, as a father, you would still preside and the authority that you would use to preside over the president being in your home is that authority. And everything concerning you and your stewardship which is your family you have the right and duty to go to God and find out what to do– the same way Abraham did, the same way Moroni did, the same way all of these prophets in the past did concerning their family.
Mike: I don’t think anyone here is trying to guide the church. Did you get that feeling from what we were saying?
Caller: Not really. I’m just trying to understand. I agree with leadership in the family. I guess if I had this kind of experience it would probably be so sacred to me that I’d have a hard time sitting on the radio talking about it and before I did so, I’d probably check first with the prophet to make sure that it’s OK that I’m teaching such a higher level doctrine and I’d kind of want their stamp of approval. Has the guest followed those steps?
David: When Jesus became my patriarchal father, the covenant that I made with Him at that time was that I would obey Him in all things whatsoever he shall command me, consult with me, teach me, guide me, everything that he did I obeyed. When he took me to His Father – the one we call our Heavenly Father – and turned me over to Him, I was then sealed to Him as his Patriarchal son. He became my Patriarchal Father. And I made the same covenant with Him, that I would obey Him. And when he tells me that I need to go testify of what’s happened in my life with his son Jesus and with Him, that’s who I obey. I don’t have to go get permission from anyone.
Caller: Did you actually touch Jesus Christ? and feel a physical, resurrected being?
David: Many times. Almost daily for a little over a 7-month period when He was my father. Every day, He would come and get me and take me places. He took me out to the Great Salt Lake and he baptized me in the Great Salt Lake. He confirmed me into the Church of the First Born. He told me that if I ever denied any of the things that He’s done with me, that He would then deny me before the Father. When He took me to His Father and I became His Father’s Son, He told me the same thing and that I’m not to fear I’m just supposed to testify. They tell me the exact words I can speak. They don’t tell me to add anything to it, but they do tell me don’t leave anything out.
Caller: How would you respond if you got a following that came to you for answers rather than turning to the scriptures and general authorities?
David: I’ve told hundreds of people, it’s their duty to go find God themselves and do what God tells them to do. It’s not my duty to tell you what you should be doing. It’s not my duty to tell the church. It’s what you and your families need to be doing.
Mike: People want to cling to someone who has had spiritual experiences because they may not have had that in their own life and they want to follow someone who has.
Caller: I’ve seen that and I agree with that. I’ve seen people go inactive or leave the church because they base it on someone else’s experience. I’ve had some spiritual experiences, nothing like your guest has had, but it’s been my experience that those things are to be kept sacred. They are for me to ponder on, to share with my family at appropriate times when the spirit is strong. And I’ve had some bad experiences casting pearls before swine.
Mike: So did Alma, so did Paul but they were told to testify and so they did.
Caller: You watch the general authorities in General Conference and they don’t say, “the other day when I was talking to Christ” What they say is “I know that Christ lives.” When they say that, I interpret that to mean that yes, they have been with Him, they have been instructed by Him and they can bear testimony that they know. But to trivialize it by saying, “Well, you know I was with him and touched him,” it goes against the sacredness of the whole thing in my opinion.
Mike: Actually, what you’re going to find out is that Jesus Christ is a real, loving , kind being
David: Who is alive right now.
Mike: And sometimes we try to put this on a pedestal that becomes unreachable. When you do that, you’re creating a gap between you and Him that you need to overcome. Commercials White Sands development. The book Sacred Scripture.
Caller: I remember reading his [David’s] paper back when he did some firesides. and he mentioned cycling therein. He said it was a can of worms and didn’t want to get into it.
Mike: Are you talking about recycling? Along the line of reincarnation?
Caller: Along that line, but not the same.
David: I don’t recall saying anything about recycling. Was it reincarnation or something like that?
Caller: Well, it was like that but a person has to go through life cycles to get to a point where he can come to the Savior.
Mike: I do know which paper you are taking about. There were 5 people that got together one night and recorded the conversation with Dave and that was a couple of years ago. That got transcribed into a 26-page document that’s been passed all over the place. Dave, why don’t you make any comments you might have on recycling.
David: Any time I’ve talked about humans, I’ve said, This is the life that you need to prepare to meet God. Right now. A lot of people I’ve run into can remember past lives. What I’ve found is that they’re remembering being a guardian angel for someone else and all of their memories are that person’s life. It’s not them living the life; it was them being a guardian angel or in charge of someone else’s life so that they could record it and that’s where their memories are coming from that I’ve personally run into..
Caller: These people that have had experiences from past lives, could it be genetic coding or genetic information?
David: I wouldn’t know. I’ve never been taught anything about that.
Mike: Let’s go back [to what we were talking about before]. Obviously, with anybody, in order to have a visitation or manifestation, it’s going to take some effort on their part in actually believing. I think the biggest problem most people have is they don’t really believe that it can happen. And they manifest that belief by it not happening.
David: If their belief is that it won’t happen, then they do manifest that because then it comes true to them. Whatever they believe becomes reality. To them., so they’re actually creating with their belief system. They actually start living what they believe.
Mike: So how do you discover the mysteries of godliness, then? What are they actually?
David: That He’s real. And when you be what your Heavenly Father’s reality of you is, then you become is real.
Mike: You are real to God, then
David: That’s right. You see, the part of you that He knows is real, is usually just sitting there waiting because you’re so busy trying to do what you want or trying to make happen in your life and until you actually trust God and come into his own reality then he just lets you do what you want to do with your life.
Mike: So, you actually change the program to where you’re doing what he wants. as opposed to doing what you want?
David: It’s more like you actually exercise faith by trusting him and then letting him run your life is really what faith is.
Mike: For a lot of people I think that’s easy to say, but the reality of doing that is a whole nother step. What does a person actually do to make that happen? Give me an example of stepping out in fatih.
David: If you actually tell him that you are willing to do anything he wants you to do and then actually do that and nothing else, He then takes over your life. When you reach that point, that’s when they actually take your prayer right to the father and say, See, they have a list of prayers and if the guardian angel says, Oh this is #141, they don’t really have to send it on because they just write down how many times you’ve said these types of prayers. but when you reach a point where you’re willing to trust God, then they run right there. And he says, OK, Let’s find out if they really are. And they’ll tell you things like “Get out of your car and just walk away” and most of the time, they’ll get a lot of arguments like, “Yeah but I’ve got a lot of things I need to go and do.” I’ve been on a lot of journeys a lot of places where he told me to go that didn’t make sense to me but I trusted him. I’ve been a lot of places with no money and I’ve had people just walk up and hand me money, or just take me and feed me. And in every case, I knew that it was God who had had that happen to me because I was trusting him. So it’s just a matter of actually being willing. I’ve found that it hasn’t got anything to do with worthiness, it has to do with willingness.
Mike: You talked about coming to a point where you had a broken heart and a contrite spirit. A lot of people have experienced this very same thing of losing a child as you have, but they haven’t had the experiences you’ve had starting at that point. There has to be a designation, at least in most people’s minds. I’ve had this experience, they’re saying, but I’m not experiencing what you have experienced.
David: My son died in’82 and it took me 3 years to get to the point where my realization that I couldn’t even save my son and if I can’t save myself then how can I save my family and if I can’t save me or my family, why am I on a stake mission trying to save someone else? In those three years, I went through all these dilemmas and when I had the broken heart and contrite spirit I finally gave up trying to do it myself, trying to get God to do it. Anything like that. When I finally said, Here I am
Mike: Instead of trying to tie God’s hands into what you wanted done
David: Raised in the church, I had all these This is the way God is going to work with me. This is how you get God to talk to you. You have to have so many tithing receipts and you have to have so many slips from the temple, you have to help so many times at the stake farm and I realized that when he talked to me it didn’t have any relationship to any of those things. It merely was when I gave up. It’s like Peter getting out of the boat – everything that he as a fisherman thought was safety to him, He got out of the boat and was going to the Lord. When he started thinking and realizing, what am I doing? “I’ve left everything that was safety to me,” that’s when he sank. When he went down three times, he reached the point in the third time to say, Lord save me. I can’t save me now. You save me. So there’s the broken heart and contrite spirit. I’m not going to put any more conditions on how you talk to me, when you talk to me, what you have me do or anything. Just “Here I am.” That’s when they started talking to me.
Mike: So when the Lord says in the scriptures, that the only acceptable sacrifice is a broken heart and a contrite spirit, He means exactly that.
David: That’s all it takes
Mike: Why don’t you go on with that story of Peter. Christ then does what?
David: What was safety to Peter, to show it in my own life, to me, the church was safety. The church was like the boat. As long as I stayed in the boat I was going to be safe. To Peter, a fisherman, he had a lot of friends and relatives he knew that if the boat went down, they went down and they died. There wasn’t savings. So to Peter, you stay in the boat or you drown. So when Peter saw the Lord and focused on the Lord, the Lord has always said, “Come unto me.” When Peter got out of the boat and headed for the Lord, he realized, “Oh my gosh, I’ve just left everything I thought was going to save me.”
David: See, his belief system was that if you’re not in the boat, you’re going to drown. Believing that, he starts to drown. When he finally said, OK. I can’t save me, so here, Lord. Save me. The Lord always will. Always can, but he can’t do it on your conditions. He only does it on his Father’s conditions. In other words, the Father tells him, until the person does this, don’t save them. Don’t put your hand out. Don’t talk to them. And Jesus has never talked to anyone except his father told him to go talk to them. He’s never saved anyone until the Father says. So the conditions are the Father’s not ours.
Mike: So then he reaches down, grabs hold of Peter
David: And he lifts him back up on the water and Peter is now experiencing what it’s like to walk on the water, but he does have his hand in the Lord’s, So what does the Lord do? He takes him back over to the boat and puts him in it, but you can’t get Peter to believe that the boat is his safety and salvation. He knows the Lord is. You can use the boat, but the boat isn’t your safety and salvation anymore.
Mike: So I guess if we parallel that with our own lives, there are a whole bunch of things that are our boat and our safety.
David: It can be family, it can be job, it can be retirement.
Keith: What you’re saying is that anything you place between you and God is that boat of safety.
David: Absolutely.
Keith: So it could be the mighty buck, or anything in reality
Mike: Career, I can think of a list
David: Everything the rich young man had.
Mike: As you look at the scriptures, it seems to me, every single person who wrote. Everything is basically how God was dealing with that individual and it comes back to the same issue of learning to let go and step out and do whatever God told them to do.
David: Yes. Abraham paid his tithes to Melchizedek, Melchizedek was the head of the church. But Abraham didn’t go to Melchizedek to find out what to do with his family. The Lord walked and talked with him and told him what to do with his family and all of his concerns.
Mike How do you plug ordinances into this particular system, into developing faith in God. Where do they fit? Most of us have been taught all our life that you’ve got this ordinance, that ordinance‚Ķ
David: Salvation is on these ordinances.
Mike: Jesus Christ himself was baptized. So how do they fit?
David: But who did Jesus go to to get baptized?
Mike: John
David: But see they had a font in the Jerusalem temple and they had high priests that could quote their priesthood genealogy back to Moses, so why did he go to John? Because John was the only one of them that could say, in fact when did John get his authority and who did he get it from?
Mike: He got it when he was in the womb, didn’t he?
David: He received the Holy Ghost when yet in the womb and when he was 8 days old, an angel, a messenger from God came and gave him his authority.
Keith: The temple or the ordinances that you referred to – baptism or the rites that are performed in the temple – all those things are conditioned upon something – usually faith or righteousness or they are a likeness or shadow of that which you can do in the future. In the scriptures it says that if you listen to the Holy Ghost, he will take you to the Father (D&C 84) and the Father will give unto you the covenant. Is he fulfilling the covenant you made in baptism?
David: Joseph Smith once said, You might as well baptize bags of sand if something doesn’t change. If you’re still the same person – in other words, baptizing your elements is the same as baptizing a bag of sand. You can do it over and over. It’s what those ordinances – see, they are in similitude of something that does have to happen to you. It’s true you need to be baptized by water and that’s in similitude of what actually has to happen to you. You need to be baptized in the light of Christ, in the love of Christ and when every cell in your body is immersed in the light of Christ, there’s no more darkness in you, there’s no more disposition to do evil. Now it’s actually happened. But until that happens, the baptism of water can’t save you. It’s to point you to, this is what’s got to happen to you.
Mike: The way it was told to me was that baptism was an outward sign.
Keith: I’ve said this a million times on my mission. It’s something that happens inwardly and when you have that outward sign, it’s to remember the change that took place inwardly. So it’s actually something there to remind you that through this spiritual experience, you were born again in water.
David: The sacrament reminds you of the covenants you made at baptism. That you’ll take upon yourself his name. The sacrament ordinance is the same type of a thing. It represents something that literally has to happen to you. You need to sanctify what you take into your mouth so that it will become your flesh. You need to sanctify what you drink so that it becomes your blood so that those become sanctified. That’s the renewing of the body. And the spirit of you needs to be in charge of that so that that can actually happen. So, that’s another ordinance in your Heavenly Father’s reality needs to take place. That’s the renewing of your body – overcoming sickness and disease and death.
Mike: In your experience what kind of ordinances did you actually go through?
David: When the first angel came and said I was ready for rebaptism, I went to my bishop and told him what the angel had said, and he actually called the temple to get me an appointment. They said, We don’t do that anymore. So then he called the stake president and asked him if we could use the stake baptismal font. He checked and they said, We don’t do that anymore. In the discussion with the angel, I said, What do you mean by rebaptism? I’ve been baptized. He said, You’re ready now to be rebaptized in preparation to receiving further ordinances. Now, since that time, I’ve been baptized right around 38 times in different situations by different people. I was baptized by Joseph Smith Sr. into the Church of Christ and confirmed in the Church of Christ. I was baptized by Joseph Smith Jr. and it happened to be in the baptismal font of the temple in the city of Enoch. And then he confirmed me into the Church of Enoch. Then I was baptized in the Great Salt Lake by Jesus in person who then confirmed me into the Church of the Firstborn. So all of these baptisms are in preparation to receiving further ordinances. It’s a cleansing process. They all go hand in hand. And that’s how the Heavenly Father’s system operates. Station break
Mike: We’ve been talking about coming unto Christ and what it takes to do that. Which is probably a important as it gets. Let’s talk a little about priesthood. You talk about Patriarchal priesthood, there’s Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthood. These are things we were brought up with church wise. How do they fit, Dave in your mind and what have you been told with regards to Aaronic priesthood.
David: Aaronic priesthood is part of the school master that brings you to Christ. It’s a make work program to get the – starting with 12 year old boys – to learn how to serve. Anyone who has been at a ward dinner knows that the girls already know how to serve. So the boys go into a program where they learn how to serve The Aaronic priesthood is one of doing physical things like preparing the sacrament, passing the sacrament, they go home teaching, they go to the stake farm and the bishop is really the culmination of it. Now he’s serving a whole ward. He’s trying to take care of all their needs – their physical needs – shelter, clothing, provides classes, ways of teaching the gospel. Things like that. That’s the Aaronic level.
Mike: You mentioned that women really don’t need that because they already know how to serve.
David: They already know how to serve, so they don’t have to go through a training process to learn that. They’ve already in a sense passed those programs. It’s the natural man that’s an enemy to God that has to be taught how to serve.
Mike: That makes me feel good. Natural man has a tendency to do things if it benefits them. So, natural man has to be in the Aaronic priesthood program, saying, Look, you’ve got to come and do this, but we’ll give you credit. We’ll put down on the roll that you were here. We’ll put down that you passed the sacrament. They’re getting you in a program saying, Look, you’ve got to do this for yourself so that you can get credit for it. That’s what the Aaronic priesthood really is.
Mike: Then you’ve got to strip that all away as you continue to progress to where you’re getting credit from God and not taking glory unto yourself. On my tithing receipts I always had my name on there
David: So who got honor from man to man?
Mike: I probably did. That’s a hard thing to get out of – the praise and honor of men, at least I think in the beginning as you progress. But after a while, you get to the point you want to get rid of them. I don’t want anyone following me. You’re probably the same. OK. Melchizedek priesthood. What’s the purpose there?
David: It was originally called the priesthood after the order of the Son of God. And they named it Melchizedek so they wouldn’t have to say the word God that many times. Melchizedek is where they focus on helping others. Instead of doing it for yourself, they start teaching you the spiritual end of things.
Mike: Would you say that that’s more then a Terrestrial level?
David: Right. That would be terrestrial where your focus is on others. You’re focused, like John the Beloved, how does this benefit others? I’ll stay here and keep bringing more people to the Lord. If your focus is on terrestrial you get into a program where everything you do benefits others.
Mike: So, Patriarchal. How does that priesthood fit in?
David: Patriarch means Father. So the Patriarchal priesthood is the priesthood of the Father. Another way they call it is the priesthood of the Ancient of Days. That’s the priesthood Adam had when he was on the earth. That focus is on God the Father. There isn’t a focus on anything except the will of the Father. It doesn’t matter what the will of the Father is for you, that’s what you do. Examples of that would be Noah, receiving from God the instructions to build an ark. Noah didn’t care what other people thought of him. He didn’t care even what his wife and children thought. He just was doing it because God told him to.
Mike: He got a lot of persecution for it.
David: He got all of his neighbors, all of his ward members actually made fun of him. Here’s a guy building a boat 200 miles from the nearest water and he took a long time to build it and the whole time they were saying, what a fool. Why are you doing this? God told him to. His focus was on the will of the Father. Nothing else mattered. And that’s really the Celestial program. In that book called Sacred Scriptures and the Levels of Light it actually describes all 3 levels and the focus of the Celestial is on doing only the will of the Father. That’s why Jesus was able to say, I’ve done nothing but what I’ve seen my Father do. I’ve said nothing but what my Father has told me to say.
Mike: So when He says ,You become one with me as I am one with the Father, He’s really saying
David: Focus on the Father. That I am – Jesus is the way to the Father. You need to focus on him but this is what the sealing power of Elijah is to turn the hearts of the children to the fathers, because the hearts of the fathers are turned now to the children.
Keith: So when the Pharisees asked the question, What is the great commandment? He gave the highest level of that.
David: He actually gave all three levels. Celestial is to love God with all your heart might, mind and strength. Now if you do that, how much of your heart is left to love someone else? He says the second is like unto it. If you view it from your Heavenly Father’s reality, something that is like unto is like a mirror reflection. You can see you in the mirror and there’s you. The reflection is like unto the reality. So, the second is like unto it. In other words, it’s similar but it’s a different level. It says the second is Love thy neighbor.- there’s terrestrial love as thyself – there’s telestial love. So you can pick any one of the three that you choose and that’s what you focus on.
Mike: That’s interesting. You can probably see it in everybody you work around and in your own life in everything that you do. You either focus on God, or focus on others or yourself.
David: In every dispensation, our Heavenly Father provided us with the highest Celestial laws first. The highest program was always provided first. When the people rejected it, then he would always give lesser.
Mike: So where would like the law of tithing would be?
David: Well, who gets the honor and who gets the credit? Whose name do they put on it? And He says if you get the honor/credit now among men, you’re not going to get the credit in heaven.
Mike: So that would be telestial.
David: That would be telestial because who is it benefiting? It’s benefiting the one who has his name on the tithing receipt.
Mike: Then how would you bring tithing to a terrestrial level?
David: If you did it soley to help others with no return to yourself. You don’t get credit. You don’t get any honor. That’s what he talks about when he says, If you’re going to do it, do it so the right hand doesn’t know what the left hand is doing. So that even the person being helped doesn’t know it was you that helped them. That’s the terrestrial level and everything you do is to benefit others.
Mike: OK. Celestial then?
David: Celestial is really the law of Consecration. All that you have, all that you ever will have, all that you have had, you consecrate to the Lord for him to use in the building up of his kingdom. If you do that, what have you got left? Nothing. You’re just now a steward of his And when your perception changes to This is God’s. Then, you don’t initiate something. You don’t say, this is what I want to do with it. You do what God wants you to do with it. Because He’s alive and he can tell you what he wants. But he only gets involved when you’re willing to put your trust and faith in Him and come to Him through his Son Jesus Christ.
Mike: Again, we’re listening to Dave Whitmer. I’m Mike Rigby and I’m co- hosting with Keith Roberts tonight. Let’s talk a little bit here, we’ve mentioned these different levels and actually you can see any scripture, any ordinance, any blessing, anything happening on one of those three levels.
David: Right. The Lord Jesus, when he was my Father, He taught me that in all the scriptures, there are 15 levels of understanding. There’s 5 levels Celestial, 5 levels Terrestrial, and 5 levels Telestial. And whatever understanding you have is true on that level, but if you talk to someone who is on a different level you can have a lively discussion and both of you think you are right, and you are, just neither one understands the other one’s level.
Caller: I’m a little confused. When you were talking about baptism earlier, you said that you were baptized by Joseph Smith Sr. into the Church of Christ and I wondered how that fit, because I thought I was baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ, so what’s the difference?
David: The original church that Joseph Smith organized was called the Church of Christ. But when the church changed the name to the Church of the Latter-day Saints, it ceased being the Church of Christ. The main reason they changed it was because they needed to get the name Christ out of the church name so they would stop being persecuted.
Mike: Wasn’t Joseph Smith gone at the time?
David: Right. I think he was gone to Canada on a mission or something.
Mike: Caller, it went for a few years and in 1836, they recombined it back.
David: That’s when Jesus said, I’m not going to have anything to do with the church because it hasn’t got my name in it, but if you’ll be known from now on as the Church of Jesus Christ you can still be the Latter-day Saints if that’s what you want, but if you’ll put my name in there, I’ll start having more to do with you. Actually, that’s when he said the whole church was under condemnation also.
Caller: Now, you’ve really confused me. I guess I’ll have to go back and read some more Church History.
Mike: Do you remember where that is exactly where he talks about the whole church is under condemnation?
David: The best way to look at it is if you go back and get an original1835 edition of the D&C. You can get that at Deseret Bookstore or Sam Wellers. If you get an 1833 edition of the Book of Commandments, it will be published by under the Church of Christ. The original Book of Mormon (1829) would be under the Church of Christ.
Caller: So, when Joseph Smith organized the church, what was it organized as then?
David: It was originally organized in 1829 as the Church of Christ according to the laws of God.
Caller: Is that in the D&C? Where did you find that out?
David: Actually, Hugh Nibley is the one who explained that to me and showed it to me. In 1829, the church was organized according to the laws of God. In every dispensation, they always start with the Celestial program first. And in April 6, 1830, they in essence reorganized the church according to the laws of the state of New York. Now, you’ve taken an organization that was set up according to your Heavenly Father’s law and now you’re saying, We want it reorganized according to the laws of the state of New York. Between those two organizations which one do you think will be the higher?
Caller: Well, of course, God’s law. But he commands us to obey the laws of the land so…
David: Only if that’s the people’s choice. See, the first choice was‚ When you make a covenant, the first covenant you always make with God is that you’ll obey God. If you choose now to obey someone besides God, he’ll always let you, but it always takes you down to a lower level. It’s what- ever your focus is on. If it’s on you, he’ll let you go to the telestial level. If your focus is on others, he’ll let you go to the terrestrial. But if your focus is on God, he’ll always take you to the Celestial program.
Caller: Then, who wanted it organized according to the laws of
David The church members did.
Caller: The church members did.
Mike: You’ll find, caller, if you were to go back into church history that there were like 75 or 90 people already baptized before the church was organized on April 6. They were baptized into the Church of Christ.
Caller: Then they were rebaptized into the church
David: into the church that was functioning according to the laws of the state of New York.
Caller: So, the church that was organized April 6, that’s the date we quote as the organization of the church. What level is that at?
David: It’s probably telestial. Let’s rephrase this from how your Heavenly Father views it. He views it as Here’s Babylon – Babylon is set up as a series of governments. If you want to go live according to the laws of Babylon, do you think that Babylon is functioning in a telestial world or a terrestrial.
Caller: Telestial
David: OK, the city of Enoch started functioning on a terrestrial level. Enoch went out and said, Here I am. I came where you sent me. Now, what do you want me to do? The Lord had him start building a city and He said, Everyone who comes, you let them help you. Enoch built up this city. Now, the armies that came against Enoch weren’t what you call armies like Saddam Hussein coming and taking over Kuwait. They were first let’s say, officials who came and said, Look, the reason your paving your streets in gold is because you’re not paying taxes to us. You’re not submitting to our laws of the land. And Enoch said, I’m not doing what you want me to do; I’m doing what God wants me to do. So now, they would send martials and say, Here we have subpoenas and they couldn’t serve the subpoenas so now more of them come.
Caller: What do you mean they couldn’t serve the subpoenas.
David: You can’t have people who are living there in a sense out on the desert but it’s in your county, it’s in your state, not live your laws, because if they won’t submit to your authority, then you’ve got to go straighten them out. If you can’t straighten them out, then you’re going to have a lot of other people that are going to say, We don’t have to do what you say either. We’re going to go do what God wants us to do. That’s when the army came against Enoch. Where those who said, Look, you’ve got to now pay taxes to us. You’ve got to submit to all our laws and all our regulations. In essence that’s when the church in 1830 said, We want to do that. Now, if you say that to your Heavenly Father, is he going to let you?
Mike: You mean its like saying I want a king and he’ll let you have it, if that’s the level you want to go.
David: He’ll always do that.
Mike: Caller, you mentioned baptism and you were asking was your baptism a telestial level of baptism? Is that the question?
Caller: I was confused because I thought I belonged to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I didn’t know how that was different from the Church of Christ, because I thought that was his church.
David: It depends on what level you’re talking about.
Caller: But he has different levels of churches.
David: Well, sure. In Revelations, it talks about 7 levels. John the Beloved talks about 7 levels of churches.
Caller: Then why are we taught that there is only one true church?
David: That’s a belief system. OK If I were to ask you if there is one church. Then in D&C 76 when they mention those who are celestial are focused on who? The Father is the one who presides over them. They are members of the Church of Enoch and members of the Church of the Firstborn. What churches do you think those are?
Mike: Well, they’re different than the one we’re in
David: Because the Father is presiding over them. Who is presiding over your church?
Caller: Well, Jesus Christ, I believe.
David: Have you met him?
Caller: No
David: I have.
Caller: I thought he’s the head of this church.
David: If he was, would you see him at a General Conference?
Mike: We’d all hope so, wouldn’t we/?
David: I’ve seen him preside at every meeting dealing with the Church of the First Born. He’s been present at every one of them.
Caller: Well, we attend his temple.
David: Have you seen him there?
Caller: I haven’t, but I know he’s been there. There have been instances recorded and it says the House of the Lord right on it. It’s his house. That’s what we are taught.
David: If you were in his house, don’t you think there’d be a lot of people that would testify of him.
Caller: You’re saying he’s not there.
David: Let’s ask this: If we were in a court of law and we had to testify of something, what could you testify of whether he was there or not?
Caller: Well I know I haven’t seen him at this point in my life. So, I couldn’t testify that he was there, but that doesn’t mean he wasn’t there.
David: That’s true. Let’s find someone who has
Caller: OK. Well, I know Lorenzo Snow saw him.
David: I believe that. Lorenzo Snow saw him, so did Lorenzo Snow testify of that.
Caller: To his daughter he did.
David: Who else?
Caller: I don’t know.
Mike: I think he actually told that story to a few people. It was his daughter
Caller: That’s who through the tradition we hear her version, but I don’t know who else.
Mike: I think what Dave is saying here is that when a person has that experience, and witnesses that, they are a witness of what happened and they testify of that making them a testifier.
David: Like Paul.
Mike: Yes, Paul testified.
David: Here’s Moroni. He’ll be talking about the Gentiles and how much he loves his brethren. He says, I have met this Jesus and I have walked and talked with him as one man talketh with another. The reason he is telling you that is because he just got through saying, “I’m testifying to you and you’re blood is not going to be on my garments because I’m telling you I’ve walked and talked with him as one man talketh with another and now I’m telling you to seek this Jesus.”
Caller: OK Well, that’s what we’re taught too. That’s the whole purpose of the church I thought.
David: Did Abraham testify that he walked and talked with the Lord?
Caller: I can’t remember.
David: Oh, yes he did. So did Enoch. Did the brother of Jared testify that he saw the Lord.
Caller: Yes, he did.
David: Now, in Ether 12:17- 20 there were many whose faith was so exceedingly strong even before Christ came who could not be kept from within the veil but truly saw with their eyes the things which they had beheld with the eye of faith and they were glad. We’ve seen that one of these was the brother of Jared. Many people exercised this faith.
Caller: He was in a cloud
David: If that’s where Jesus is, that’s where you’re going to meet him.
Mike: Face to face actually is quite a bit different.
David: OK. Let’s go back to chapter 4. It starts out where Moroni is describing what the brother of Jared saw. He actually met the Lord, personally, face to face. And he wrote it all down. And Moroni is now sealing up Starting with verse 6, The Lord said unto me They shall go forth unto the Gentiles We’re the Gentiles. The Gentiles are the ones this book was written for. It shall not go forth (what – the sealed part of the gold plates describing what the brother of Jared had seen) shall not go forth to the Gentiles until the day they shall repent of their iniquity and become clean before the Lord. In that day that they exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them, the things which the brother of Jared saw. What do you think that would be? Himself
Caller: Well, he saw the Lord.
David: Even to the unfolding of all my revelations saith Jesus Christ. Jesus is now going to tell you who he is. If you just exercise faith, I’ll show you everything the brother of Jared saw.
Caller: I assume it would been a lot like what Nephi saw.
David: That’s exactly why Nephi…
Caller: The beginning to the end.
David: I was shown exactly the same revelation. – beginning to end – the exact same way. If someone says, you don’t need to meet the Lord. Now here’s the Lord saying that you do. In the next verse (verse 8) He that will contend against the word of the Lord (what word – him telling you that you need to meet him) let him be accursed and He that shall deny these things let him be accursed for unto them will I show no greater things, He that believeth these things which I have spoken, him will I visit with the manifestations of my spirit. Why is he saying spirit?
Caller: It’s because it’s before he was born
David: Sure. Now what’s the very next part of that sentence? “And he shall know and bear record.” What do you think I’m doing right now? I’m bearing record that I’ve seen him and that I’ve walked and talked with him and I testify that and you need to. This is the time, in your probationary state right now, this is the time for you to prepare to meet God.
Caller: If you die without seeing him, does that mean that you don’t get to go to the Celestial Kingdom?
David: Do you think there is some other way that you can get to the Father?
Caller: I don’t know. That’s what we are taught.
David: If someone gives you a list of things to do and you do all of them, will that get you to the Celestial kingdom or does Jesus say that “I am the way to the Father. There is no way but by me.” What do you think that means – that there’s some other way you’re going to get there? No. You have to do it with him. That’s faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. What’s the first principle of the gospel in your church?
Caller: Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
David: If you do that, what happens to you? Right here, he just described it.
Caller: There are many levels of faith. We are learning faith all the time.
David: This level is that you meet him face to face. When Ezra Taft Benson took over as president of the church, the first thing he said was that the whole church was under condemnation, quoting D&C and he said the whole church is still under condemnation. Why? Because they haven’t done the covenants that are in the Book of Mormon. This is a covenant right here with Jesus. He’s making a covenant with you. This is what you need to do. If you don’t do it, you’re not living this covenant and that’s why the church is under condemnation. They went under condemnation when they said, We don’t even want to be in a church called the Church of Christ. We want to change it to the church of the latter-day saints. We want to get rid of the persecution. Jesus said, If you come and follow me, they’ll persecute you the same way they did me.
Caller: Why are we taught that we can get to the Celestial kingdom by being members of this church and by doing what we’re commanded to do. It’s a step by step process.
David: That’s some other way. That’s trying to enter the Celestial kingdom some other way, isn’t it?
Mike: Have we helped you out caller with your questions?
Caller: It disturbs me.
David: Then you might as well change the first principle to faith in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Caller: But the church teaches faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
David: They teach it, but who does it? and it says right here, If you‚ “I will visit you with the manifestations of my spirit and he shall know and bear record.” Lorenzo Snow bore record Now you tell me who else has?
Caller: Uhh
David: There’s a difference between knowing about Jesus and knowing Jesus and if you’ll turn to John 17:3 it’ll say, this is life eternal to know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent. I know about Bill Clinton but I don’t know him. I know Jesus. I know him personally. I’ve walked and talked with him. I’m telling you, he’d love to walk and talk with you. Draw near unto Him and he’ll draw near unto you. Ask. Knock. And the door will be opened. It’s really that simple. But if you don’t believe it. If you contend with his own words, saying this is what you have to do OK. Let’s go to another place. Go to 2 Nephi and let’s find out what he’s going to tell you here. In about 4 chapters he tells you 3 times the same steps. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism by water and then cometh the remission of your sins by fire and the Holy Ghost. That’s verse 17 of 2 Nephi 31. Then you’re in this straight and narrow path which leads to eternal life. You’ve entered in by the gate. You’ve done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son. What are the command- ments of the Father and Son? Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism, receive the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost will do what now? Jump to chapter 32. Let’s start with verse 3. Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost, wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I’ve said unto you feast upon the words of Christ, for behold the words of Christ will tell you all things what you should do. Let’s jump to [verse] 5. For behold again I say unto you, if you will enter in by the way and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things that you should do. Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ. and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself to you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do. I did that. He manifested himself unto me in the flesh and I saw him and walked and talked with him and everything he said to me, I observed to do.
Caller: So did he command you right away to start telling‚ testify of him?
David: No, it was 3 years before he told me I had to. in a sense of typing up a testimony of 2 pages and passing it around. But then he made me stand on a street corner in Portland, Oregon and pass it out to everybody that came along. But prior to that time, I told anybody that he told me to tell.
Caller: We’ve had many prophets and I know whereof all of them saying that they have testified of Jesus that they’ve seen the same kind of things
David: I’m not aware of any of them saying that. I went and talked to Bruce R. McConkie 3 times and I asked him all 3 times, Have you ever met the Lord Jesus Christ? and he said No. I said, Do you know anybody that Has? And he said No. I said, How can you be a special witness of Christ? And he said, In a Telestial church, on a telestial level, if the Holy Ghost testifies to me that Jesus is the Christ, then I can testify on a telestial level about Jesus. I can’t testify that I know him but I can testify that he lives. And he says, Look how many books I’ve written on the Messiah. But he says, I can’t preach anything more than faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism and receive the Holy Ghost because everything else, you need to get from the Holy Ghost. That’s the path to Jesus. Then Jesus is the path to the Father. That’s what he told me.
Caller: Well, that doesn’t give much people hope. If they die without seeing the Lord.
David: Sure it does. Let’s turn to D&C 93 verse 1 and let’s see how much hope you can have. Verily, thus saith the Lord, it shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me and calleth on my name and obeyeth my voice and keepeth my commandments shall see my face and know that I am
Caller: What I’m saying is that it still doesn’t give much hope for a lot of people because most people don’t receive Christ in this life
David: But who should you have hope in?
Caller: In Christ.
David: OK The reason you don’t feel much hope is because your hope is in something other than him. It takes faith in him to get this to happen. It’s not faith in something in an organization, it’s not faith in mortal men It’s faith in someone who overcame mortality who is resurrected. That’s why the focus has to be on him. You can’t focus on someone who isn’t resurrected. You can’t focus on someone who is going to die because they don’t know the way. Jesus does. Jesus knows the way to the Father. There’s no other way you’re going to get there.
Caller: She pointed out that Mike and David are not members of the church.
Mike: Told of his gratitude for the church. Dave went on
David: Five stake missions.
Mike: So how many years were you on stake missions?
David: Probably 12 or 13 somewhere in there, but I’m just guessing.
Mike: Keith, you went to Bolivia on your mission. The church was wonderful to teach us how to grow and develop and come unto Christ. It did its job.
David: It’s being the schoolmaster to point people, guide people to Jesus.
Caller: Are you ministers? What do you do for work?
Mike: I would classify ourselves as full time laborers of God. That takes in a whole bunch of areas for work.
David: I frame houses. I’m a carpenter at least 8-10 hours a day 5 to 6 days a week.
Caller: Are you with the Church of the First Born?
David: No. Jesus is the one who officiates and does everything with the Church of the First Born. He doesn’t assign anyone else to do anything on that.
Caller: There is a church called the Church of the First Born
Mike: We’re not affiliated with that.
Caller: Are you with the Church of Christ?
Mike: No. I’m familiar with who you are talking about there.
David: We’re not with any church organized by man
Caller: And you’re not members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
David: I was excommunicated. All my experiences I had in 85 I reported to my bishop every week. He agreed with most things. My stake president came over and talked with me in May of 85 and he spent 5 hours in my home and he said that when he was in seminary, his seminary teacher had taught him that all these things that had been happening to me needed to happen to him in this life. He needed to have the ministering of angels. He needed to have communion with the Church of the First Born and with the righteous and just. He needed these things to be happening to him in this life. That’s what he believed when his seminary teacher taught him.
Caller: Are you a convert?
David: I was born in the church. I was raised in the church. I grew up in Safford, AZ. Spencer Kimball was stake president when I was born. I graduated from seminary
Caller: Where did Christ appear to you and are you a part of a polygamy group?
David: No. I’ve never been a part of a polygamy group. I do have a wife and nine children – eight of them are living. I’ve still got 2 of my children at home. The others are married. I have 14 grandchildren.
Caller: Have you ever been to the temple?
David: I was an officiator in the temple for 2 1/2 years. I’ve been a veil worker in eleven of the Mormon temples
Caller: Did the stake president explain why this happened to you?
David: He had been on a full time mission and he had got married in the temple And within a few months he was put in the bishopric. Five years later, he was then made the bishop and 6 years after that, he was released as a bishop and put in as the first counselor in the stake presidency. He was that for 11 years and then he was made the stake president 2 months prior to him sitting there and talking to me.. He said that he’s been a seminary teacher for 18 years and that none of these things had happened to him, therefore, they can’t be happening to me. He said, I’m going to excommunicate you so that no one will listen to you and no one will follow you.
Caller: She asked David if he had used the test to detect a minister of Satan. She said, That’s not in your testimony, therefore, you’ve been deceived.
David: The first vision I had was Jesus taking me by the hand and showing me in 3 visions that night, the exact same thing. That’s him physically taking me by my hand.
Caller: Well, I don’t think that that happened, sir. You’ve been deceived.
Caller: You were talking about how we needed to have the perfect faith. What would your definition of faith be?
David: Perfect faith is in Jesus Christ. Jesus is saying that if you had faith in him, He would reveal all the manifestations. That was in Ether 4.
Caller: If you have faith in Jesus Christ, you could not have seen him.
David: Until you exercise faith in him, you’re not going to be able to see him.
Caller: From what you’ve said here, you’re not working off faith any more.
David: That’s true.
Caller: You’re working off knowledge.
David: What we were discussing was what it takes to be able to meet him in the first place and what it takes is faith.
Caller: I’ve had a lot of experiences, not quite of that scope or magnitude, but frankly, I find what you’re doing a little crass. Unless, you’re going to come out and proclaim yourself a prophet of Jesus Christ, what you’re doing is wrong. People have seen things, heard things, I’ll just quote one – Luke 2:19 Mary kept all these things and pondered them in her heart. She didn’t get on a radio show and talk about what she had seen.
David: But if the Lord had told her to testify of him, what do you think she Would have done? If Jesus specifically told her to testify to everyone and told her specifically how to do it, what do you think Mary would do?
Mike: When Stephen was being stoned, he said, I saw God the Father and Jesus Christ. So what is he doing?
Caller: He’s testifying of Jesus Christ. I’m not saying that people have not testified of Christ throughout the ages. But when people testify of a sure knowledge of Jesus Christ, they are more than just a person walking around and talking They are declaring themselves I don’t think you can find an example in the scriptures where someone has declared seeing Jesus Christ who is not a prophet.
David: What is your definition? Joseph Smith’s definition of prophet is anyone who has a testimony of Jesus.
Caller: That’s not what he said. He said the definition of a prophet is one who has a sure knowledge of Jesus Christ, not a testimony.
David: No, he said the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy
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