July 27, 2015
Handling Duality
Clay:
I can tell you from some profound experiences during meditation that inside and outside are illusions. There is no inside or outside I swear I am not being contrarian this if from actual experience.
When you can observe your body from outside of yourself, your consciousness is definitely itself not inside or outside. It can be everywhere.
JJ
Over the years we have had a number of people come here who have had a similar experience and because of it feel they have an agenda to enlighten us because we use some of the principles of duality in our discussion.
Because we do not immediately endorse their vocabulary they often become rude, insulting and attack us as if we were a bunch of spiritual hayseeds.
We have found this quite strange since they describe their experience to which they wish to lead us toward as being great peace and love. Yet they come here with a chip on their shoulder bringing no peace and showing no love.
Obviously, this “Great Void”, as it is often described, is far from any ultimate experience, for anything near the ultimate would also include a manifestation of great love which is a main part of the lesson for which we came.
Nevertheless, the oneness experience is real and we learn from all experiences. The problem is that which is registered by the concrete mind often falls short of understanding all that is involved.
So, is all of the duality of this world just an illusion that we need to discard? Should we cease from speaking of hot and cold, up and down, male and female etc?
It is true that all the worlds of form are created by illusion. As scientists examine physical matter and go smaller and smaller the only real thing they can find is wavelengths. The reason is that all form is created from wavelengths.
And what creates the wavelength?
I have called this the “Guitar String Principle.”
If you take a single guitar string and look at it, how many strings do you see?
You see one string.
If you then pluck it so it creates sound how many strings do you see?
Generally you will see three strings. One seems to be up, another down and the third in the middle.
Are there really three strings?
No. There is only one string. The three strings are an illusion.
How about the sound coming from the string? Is that illusion?
It seems to have been created through a principle of illusion, but the experience of the sound is very real to me.
Why?
I’m not sure. Maybe because the original string is real.
Maybe so.
In the beginning all was one, the one Great Life, we call God, the home in which we all dwelt. There was no form, but just a singularity, or a single string, so to speak. God plucked the string, or breathed outwardly, manifesting sound, or The Word which created the universe of form and duality.
Since duality is created by illusion does this mean the principle is not real?
No. The principle is real because duality had to exist within the mind of God for it to manifest. It is true that the string is one, but He who created sound from the string had duality as part of his being. Duality had to be a part of his reality before he could manifest form and duality. You cannot create that which is not inherent in you.
From a higher point of view complete oneness is illusion, just as duality seems to be illusion to some seekers here.
Duality and oneness are part of a great cycle used by the Source of all things in the process of eternal creation and creativity.
Yes, it can be argued that duality here is illusion and should be ignored, but what cannot be ignored is the reality of the experience. If you ignore heat and place your hand on a hot stove you will experience pain, which is real at the time you are experiencing it.
Dreams are also considered to be created by illusion, but if you dream that you lost your true love you would feel real sorrow that may linger after you wake up. That feeling was real even though the dream was created by apparent illusion.
Some of those who are too far into he nonduality idea disconnect themselves from this world to the extent that they do not have the experiences from which they came here to learn.
While in this world, up is up and down is down. Hot is hot and cold is cold. The rules may be different in other planes, but, while here, life is much better dealing with the rules of the game.
***
Clay:
My biggest critique of your use of duality and dualitic language is dividing humanity into a light and dark brotherhood.
JJ
And my biggest critique of you is how you mischaracterize my teachings. I do not think you can produce a quote from my millions of words where I divide humanity into light and dark brotherhoods.
What would be much more productive is to find some actual words I have written and then assess them.
Clay:
I personally do not believe in any dark brotherhood, but have encountered dark entities, but as I have mentioned, they are not people, they are thought forms that exist due to human thoughts, they do not possess any real (ontological existence).
JJ
These dark entities you note represent the Dweller on the Threshold of which I have written a lot.
Clay:
I think separating humans into light and dark brotherhoods is incredibly dangerous and potentially leads to great abuses.
JJ
I haven’t done this so your point is moot.
Clay:
I do no think it is useful to personal or societal growth. The only dark brotherhood anyone should be opposing is the darkness that resides within our own hearts.
JJ
Now you are moving into crazy talk. So if some guy is raping your wife you would sit in a corner and examine the darkness within you? Sounds pretty silly.
Clay:
It becomes far too easy to dismiss the arguments or even demonize those one disagrees with as being either under the influence or directly working for this dark brotherhood and this has been a technique of authoritarian regimes since civilization began.
JJ
You have a point there but this does not apply to me and is not the direction I take. I have never dismissed any argument in my life just because it seemingly comes from a dark side. As I said, if you are going to argue with me you need to ague with what I say and teach, not with what I do not say and teach.
Clay:
I try to avoid all division of humanity into forces of good and forces of evil.
JJ
I’d divide them into those who are quite misled on some true principles and others who are less misled.
Clay:
I do not think America is good or evil, I think we do good and evil actions, same with every other country.
JJ
I would agree, but I think you see a lot more evil in America than most.
Clay:
Each action should be viewed independently, and not ever granted the assumption we are right because we are America.
JJ
I would think that everyone on the Keys agrees with you here, just not with your intensity as you seem to see evil under every rock, despite the fact that you are against dividing us unto good and evil.
Clay:
I readily admit, I am not a patriot because I think Patriotism is a false religious system.
JJ
I merely see patriotism as giving my country the benefit of the doubt. It does indeed seem that you do not do this but go the extreme in demonizing it.
Clay:
I do not believe in my country good or bad, my party good or ill, or my religion good or ill.
JJ
I do not think anyone on the Keys has this attitude of blind acceptance of anything. That is why they are here. However, they are not going to demonize this or any other country without evidence and then balancing it against the whole.
Clay:
Jesus told me to love my neighbor as myself, not just my countrymen or fellow church goers, or those who hold the same ideology as me.
JJ
If you think that I do not agree with you here then that is perplexing indeed. You do however seem to really demonize me because I think differently than you in some matters. You are largely mistaken though because you do not seem to understand much of what I have taught.
Clay:
So while I may disagree with someone or even a party, I will never label them as evil, ever.
JJ
You are not very convincing here. You may not have used evil in relation to Bush, conservatives or America, but you really paint them as evil with the brush you use. A rose is a rose by any other name.
Clay:
Not even Hitler and Stalin. They are my brothers as well, misguided without a doubt, but not part of some evil cabal in war against the light. Most of your teachings I really have not problem with, but your heavy dualism about a dark and light brotherhood I find incredibly problematic and potentially dangerous. I do admit that this source of disagreement tends to bias me against some of your teachings that normally I would have little problem with an possibly agreement with.
JJ
It is evident that you have an extreme bias against me and much of it is unfounded.
I’ll soon write a post or two about my real views on light and dark with the hope of correct vision. Even though we have covered this many times a refresher course in new wording may shed additional light.
July 28, 2015
Light and Dark
Clay, I know you said your wife was reading the Immortal books I sent you, but have you actually read them all?
I hope you realize that to make an interesting story that you have to make a strong division between the good guys and the bad guys, the good and the evil so to speak. If not you may have been upset at George Lucas. Even though he is a political liberal as you his Star Wars stories illustrated some great truths, that wouldn’t have been possible without the great contrast.
A number of the encounters with dark forces in the books are based on true personal experiences, but with changed time frames and circumstances.
I have come close to the point of death in struggling against dark entities several times so I know whereof I speak. Fortunately, they do not have power just to point their fingers and destroy those who oppose them, but they can gather their forces and, when certain windows are open, unleash them on those who they think may be a problem.
Yes, I do believe in a Brotherhood of Light and a Dark Brotherhood, but these unseen organizations are not divisions of the human race. The masses of humanity know nothing about them and are not a part of them. The Brotherhood of Light are members of the fifth kingdom on this planet, the Masters of Wisdom, whose consciousness belongs to the Kingdom of God. Regular human mortals are members of the fourth kingdom.
The Dark Brotherhood consists of very intelligent beings, some of which are in the physical and some in etheric bodies. Paul spoke of these when he said,
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.” Eph 6:11-12
These are not mindless demons but intelligent entities that were once on the path of light and love but took a wrong turn on the path of selfishness.
There are two groups of people who do not accept a form of light or dark brotherhoods.
The first are the atheists who do not accept anything existences beyond the normal rage of perception.
The second believe in many spiritual realities beyond the physical, but are either just turned off by the idea of good and evil or have bought into some type of non duality teaching.
This second group needs to look at the logic of the reality that we know and apply it to what is generally not so well known. In other words, to find the truth we need to examine how things work in this world and then apply it to intelligences in the unseen worlds.
Here are some points of truth about humanity that are beyond refute.
(1) Wherever humans gather there will be created various hierarchies. A governing hierarchy will definitely manifest creating rules and structure. This will be followed by spiritual, business and social ones – all subject to the first.
Conclusion: It would make no sense that such hierarchies exist here consistently among humans and not in the unseen worlds. Wherever intelligent beings gather there will be hierarchy, on earth or in heaven, or wherever they may be.
(2) There are quite a number of natural divisions that occur among humanity such as:
- Those who believe in God and the supernatural and those who do not.
- Conservatives and liberals
- Givers and takers
- Responsible and irresponsible
- Leaders and followers
- Those who want to control others for their own purposes and those who desire maximum freedom for the human spirit.
Conclusion: If there are such ubiquitous divisions among all self conscious life here then it stands to reason that intelligent life, unseen to us, would also have divisions. Logic tells us that the closer we as a people get to the truth the more we will see eye to eye, but it appears that we as yet have a long way to go.
(3) The prime division among humanity that causes conflict is (F) and revolves around the Principle of Freedom. Those who violate this principle range from the person of good intention suggesting some unnecessary rule to the tyrant who orders complete submission with the option of prison or death. The majority supports a violation of this principle to some degree but will resist a major restriction when it affects their own lives.
Conclusion: We see these two poles manifest in various countries. North Korea is the best example of one that violates he Principle of Freedom and seeks for ultimate control of groups and individuals. Other groups such as the Taliban and ISIS are not far behind.
Numerous Western governments support freedom as an ideal though they are far from perfect in execution.
(4) Concerning the two sides of the freedom issue it is natural to place one on the side of good and the other evil or to classify one as enlightened (light) and the other as dark. Some resist labels because they seem to think they change something. They change nothing. A rose is a rose by any other name, but we do need to use names and labels to communicate correctly and the words should reflect reality as much as possible.
Conclusion: Good and evil are awkward words to use because the user goes by his own definition. For instance, in North Korea going against the iron will of the Dear Leader is seen to be evil. This view is seen as ridiculous to people in democratic nations who see such control as evil.
On the other hand, light and dark are quite appropriate. Nowhere is this more apparent than in the satellite photographs of North and South Korea from space. Take a look.
North Korea is almost completely dark and South Korea and the free nations are full of light.
Light is naturally associated with the freedom of the human spirit. He who functions in freedom feels light, light hearted, and seeks greater light and knowledge than he who is oppressed and controlled. Those who are controlled are often pressured to not seek greater light and knowledge or are punished for using it.
(5) If we realistically associate freedom with light and excess control with darkness we find that there are indeed organizations dedicated to both sides physically existing on the earth. North Korea and other organizations would definitely be classified as dark and others leaning to the light.
Conclusion: Where a duality manifests names must be applied to identify the two poles so understanding can be communicated. Those who refuse to name refuse to communicate effectively. Instead of light and dark we could use a number of different labels, but a rose is a rose under any other name. Light and dark are a lot more appropriate than many alternatives such as damaged/whole, good/evil, misled/on the right path, etc.
(6) We see then that there are organizations (we could even call them brotherhoods) dedicated to light and dark, freedom and control existing right here on this physical earth viewed with our very eyes and heard with our physical ears.
Conclusion: Since there are indeed rulers supporting the dark side of freedom right here on the earth, seen on the news regularly, then it stands to reason that Paul was correct that there does indeed exist “rulers of darkness” in the seen and unseen worlds that we must struggle against.
Paul also spoke of an organization called “the body of Christ” as one that represented light and love completing the duality and in the unseen world the Book of Hebrews speaks of “the general assembly and church of the firstborn.”
If there are those representing light and dark all round us in the world that we see then it stands to reason that the same could exist, but on a higher turn of the spiral in the unseen.
***
Source Material
Clay:
DK I do not believe is any sort of Tibetan Master as her/his alleged teachings just resemble typical western esoteric occult teachings and bear zero resemblance to any high level Tibetan theology or practices that have since come out since Baileys time.
JJ
You said you read around 100 pages of the free Bailey book I recommended. This statement makes me doubt even that. On the other hand, you recommended to me Meditations on the Tarot which I had to go out of my way and purchase. Instead of giving it a half hearted effort (in order to understand your belief system) I read the whole thing which was 665 pages of small print. As I told you it contained some good material. But what I did not do, in an attempt to be courteous was not compare it to the Bailey writings. Because of your jaundice eye expressions toward Bailey I will now give a wider view which is this.
If this is the best book you can come up to illustrate enlightenment then you need to search further. The book is fine for beginners who are just starting their search, but it brings no new light on any principle. If it does perhaps you can point it out. It gives lots of data that may or may not be true. The advantage of dealing with principles is that they are easily recognized as truth by the soul.
One page of the Bailey material has more enlightenment that the whole book of 665 pages you recommended. The problem with the Bailey writings for those who just scratch the surface of things is that there is a lot of depth that can only be fully accessed by deep contemplation. Those who do not want to focus will just dismiss their value.
When you first came on board you talked about how the ceremonies in the Catholic Church had great meaning for you. I see little value in them but thought that if they have meaning for you that is fine. If I had your attitude that you express toward me I would have belittled your ceremonies and written pages about how silly and unreasonable they are.
The difference between you and me is I could make a good case of this, but you cannot make a good case against the Bailey writings or my own. You never quote them but just nebulously attack them as a whole.
Clay
So part of the problem again is the source material that JJ and I utilize. I rely on te great mystics from Buddhism, Hinduism, Sufism, Taoism, and Christianity,
JJ
I study a wide variety of materials, but my source of truth is the soul. It matters not whether the material was written by God or the devil himself; the soul cannot be fooled and can find truth anywhere.
Many of my teachings are found in no book on the planet. I just do not read someone else and copy and paste or just put my spin on it. I attempt to tune into my soul and write under its guidance.
Clay:
However, first and foremost, I value critical thought above supporting any belief I hold.
JJ
And I place great value on critical thought. Any truth, even those not found in any book, must eventually pass the test of critical thinking.
All truth will pass the test of critical thinking, but critical thinking alone overlooks many things that are true.
***
Finding the True Teachings
Clay:
JJ please refute that Bailey presents anything resembling esoteric Buddhism from Mahamudra Tantra and Vjarana Tantra and I will retract my statements about Bailey.
JJ
There is very little overlap in the two teachings. The teachings you mention have nothing about the rules of White Magic in the book you started. DK teaches an enormous amount about the Seven Rays which are not covered in the Tantra teachings, nor are his teachings about the hierarchies, the brotherhoods, esoteric astrology, esoteric psychology, cosmic fire, Sirius, the reappearance of Christ and many other things.
What is there about the two teachings you consider to be of such strong resemblance???
Clay
No I have not read most of her works but from what I did read, it resembled Western Esoterism of which Bailey was a student and bore no semblance to esoteric Buddhism, which Bailey was not familiar with.
JJ
Who cares if it resembles the east or the west? I only care if the writings register with my soul no matter where they are from.
Clay
Based upon this judgment I took DK to not be a real “master” but a product of Baileys subconscious.
JJ
I’d like you to show me any more profound writings. Your book on the Tarot was kindergarten by comparison. All you have done here is tear apart. Do you have anything edifying to present here that can be of value to those treading the path?
Please do not respond by giving a list of books. Anyone can do that.
Clay
Baileys teachings seems derived almost entirely from Theosophy, western Occultism, and very little on true Tibetan esoterisim, again which is only now starting to come out.
JJ
You overlook the most important attribute of a true seeker. He doesn’t ask “by what authority?” Instead he runs teachings by his soul and goes by what registers as true, no matter what the source.
Bailey’s writings comment on a number of points from Theosophy and then expands on them, but mostly adds new material not found there.
Clay:
My guess is that had Bailey actually channeled a Tibetan Master, he would have had some access to these, at the time, unknown teachings, but it seems very much in line with what the general state of knowledge was regarding Tibetan Buddhism at her time.
JJ
The writings have little resemblance to Tibetan Buddhism at the time. Most of the teachings are found nowhere else and do not resemble anything I have found east or west.
Clay:
Since most of your teachings seem to rely upon Bailey, Theosophy, and Smith, I think it is fair to say that your theology and cosmology is derived from these systems, which again, I do not consider trustworthy.
JJ
I quote sources now and then and elaborate on them but my writings rely on communion with my own soul and are found in no book. Of the millions of words of teachings I have in the archives written by my they all are either new or present an expanded way of interpreting the old.
Instead of just discounting things because they do not have the proper credentials for you why not trust your own inner soul to guide you to the truth?
Clay:
You are a nice guy again JJ, but you like me are not chosen, not special, and not a danger to the dark. It is a just a phase of development and you have no special mission to the world. If you want to teach, by all means teach, but drop the messiah act.
JJ
You have pointed out a number of times how I am not special, not chosen, not a messiah etc. Why do you make such unfounded inflammatory insinuations of my thinking with no basis in fact? Perhaps the thing that differentiates me from most other spiritual teachers is that I make no such claims about myself and have stated this dozens of times, yet you, time and time again, try to take me down a notch insinuating I cling to specialness.
Please, please, please, argue with what I say. Not with what I do not say. I do not like to waste time defending myself against something I do not say, do, or believe.
Also, you never responded to my logic that if supporters of light and dark exist in this realm then, it is most probably they exist in others. Is human thinking so different from the rest of the universe that we are the only ones who have supporters and opponents of freedom?
In addition, you never confirmed that you actually read my books I sent you.
***
Clay:
Also, these Internet forums are amazing. So far I have met , James the brother of Jesus, a person under discipleship to the beloved apostle John and a representative of the brotherhood of light, and the amazing Brown Brothers who have somehow discovered the key to eternal physical existence based upon their understanding of the Bible. Nope, no exaggerated egos on the Internet.
JJ
You are being unjust here. You cannot find anywhere that I have made the claims you falsely accuse me of.
Please argue with what I say, not with what I do not say.
It is interesting that in arguing with you that I quote your exact words, but when you argue with me you just throw out whatever you think I think.
Clay:
Lol. I might act arrogant, but I definitely am much more humble in my claims.
JJ
Yeah, and this comes from the guy who just told us he saw Jesus and knows the rest of us are wrong because he is special enough to have gone beyond duality to merge with the absolute – beyond duality.
Clay:
Also be careful about simply registering truth through your soul, we are absolutely best at deceiving ourselves. We are the best liars to ourselves. That is why I always seek conform my truths, not just accept them because they feel satisfying.
JJ
It sounds like you have never had a soul experience for what you describe is someone who receives from his emotional nature which indeed is deceptive. The soul, or your Higher Self, is the closest thing to infallibility and mine has never led me astray yet – though I have really questioned it at the time.
The soul is much more reliable than conclusions derived from critical thought but in the end always agrees with logic and reason. Truth s always reasonable.
Clay:
Again, I absolutely loved the teachings of Doctor Emoto and I wanted very much to believe him, it just turns out he is a charlatan, but I could have ignored all the evidence against him because his teachings felt “true” to me, or maybe I just wanted to believe them? Always watch out for confirmation bias, it is a subtle foe.
JJ
My soul never confirmed that Emoto was accurate though it does confirm that one’s thoughts can leave subtle impressions on water and other elements and there is some truth behind the Catholic belief in holy water.
Clay:
Also JJ, not to be rude, but what exactly do you teach that is not taught anywhere else on the planet? I have not come across anything you have written that I have not read elsewhere before.
JJ
Most days I teach something that has not been taught before. Did you read my post just this morning on Light and Dark?
Where else have you seen such an argument presented for the existence of light and dark beyond the physical?
The idea presented is that that there is definitely light and dark on this planet and it exists here in many forms. Then by the Law of Correspondences it logically must exist in non physical spheres.
The six points giving reasoning for this conclusion are found nowhere else.
The statement, “Those who refuse to name refuse to communicate effectively,” is a thought I have seen nowhere else and this is just one average post.
On a deeper level perhaps the most profound new teaching I have given out is The Molecular Relationship.
Other interesting ones are:
The gathering principle
The Grand Tour in Book Four of the Immortal gives a view of the microcosm, macrocosm and time not found anywhere else.
Teachings on the beast.
The interpretation of the Book of Revelation and Daniel Chapter Two much different than any other writer.
The teachings on the value of principles being the language of the soul and their values in pursuing the truth.
The Song of the 144,000
The interpretation of the name of Jesus Christ.
The Molecular Business
Molecular Politics
Project Peace and Goodwill
The male-female charges and their cycles
The meaning of the twelve fruits of the tree of life
The mystery of 1+1=1
The Keys of knowledge, numerous new principles and hundreds of other things.
I am answering this not to proclaim specialness as you claim, but merely supplying facts you asked for. The fact that I have writings that I believe to be helpful is no reason to meanly accusing me of having a Messiah complex. Many writers think they have produced something helpful for mankind and want to see them circulated and understood.
There are a lot of teachings out there I haven’t read but rarely do I teach something that I believe to be new that I find clearly explained anywhere else.
To me this is a testimony of the power of soul contact and my wish is that the new teachings inspire others to believe they can achieve the same thing.
Clay
Again JJ this seems to be your ego wanting to be very special again. I suggest again, go and read Saint John of the cross and Theresa of Avila, they both discuss your phase of spiritual development…
JJ
And what stage of development are you in most holy and wise and special one? Perhaps you could drop a few crumbs of truth for the rest of us?
I’ve read all Tolle’s works and was not impressed as you seem to be. His explanation of the pain body was taught in much more usable form by L. Ron Hubbard in the Fifties. Hubbard called it the Reactive Body.
Clay
If you have any proof of any dark brotherhood I am all ears,
JJ
The Law of Correspondences presents pretty solid evidence.
Your only argument against them is dead mystics and you don’t even quote what any say about the matter. You just expect us to believe that all back you up. You were wrong about Krishna backing up your beliefs, for he was an advocate of war to Ajuna. Oh, and you had a common mystical experience and that gives you more authority than the rest of us.
Clay
But there is no literal dark brotherhood or lord of darkness. Not even Hitler, or Stalin, or Genghis Kahn. There has never been any secret brotherhood on either side guiding humanity or opposing it.
JJ
And we should believe you why?
Because you say so. You supply no evidence you are right. Outside of Hitler and maybe Genghis Kahn most other bad guys were just thugs and pawns.
The thugs may seem as dangerous to the casual observer but Hitler was he only tyrant who had power to set up a kingdom that would enslave mankind for a thousand years as he openly stated.
***
To Clay – When accusing me of any claims I made you need to refer to my non fiction writings. In any story the author tries to make the hero bigger than life.
In all I make no unusual claim about my writings or myself. My claim is that they are put out there for people to read and run by their own souls. If their souls verify any parts of them fine, and if not fine. The only authority used is the power of the words themselves. I do not claim to be a messiah, a great soul reincarnated that must be believed, or that my words are approved by Jesus, God or whatever. I do not even give mystical experiences as proof that I am correct as you have done.
You come across a really nit picky in your unjust accusations based on my fictionalized books and your bias.
Clay
So when it comes to the reality of your dark brotherhood and your cosmologies, Ockhams razor would indicate that Jung and Campbell’s approach that these are subconscious manisfestations and not super natural entities are at work.
JJ
Jung is an odd example for you to give since he had visions of Jesus and Elijah and channeled an entity called Philemon. He was often seen talking with this invisible entity by passing people.
I found Campbell quite boring and uninspiring.
I assume you are referring to Occam’s razor. So are you saying that this principle disproves the reality of higher beings and realities. Were you lying then when you told us of your mystical experiences and meeting Jesus? Your use of this in arguing against me would also discount your belief system so it appears you are attacking your own beliefs here.
Occam’s Razor tells us that the simplest, least complicated answer is generally to be the most trusted.
What I have written on the brotherhood is the simplest because it is in harmony with the Law of Correspondences. A simple analogy usually points to the simplest answer.
Clay
You claim to be a big believer in logic, well DKs system iviokates fundamental principles in logic by his almost limitless numbers of supernatural beings and levels and masters he proposes.
JJ
You sound like an atheist here. Are you saying that you do not believe in an afterlife composed of supernatural beings? If so I am amazed that you regularly attend a church that believes in all kinds of supernatural beings and realms.
Clay
So ask is it logical to presume the existence of so many supernatural entities, which flies in direct opposition to Ockhams razor.
JJ
Occam’s Razor would only questionably apply here if you are an atheist and reject, God, higher worlds and an afterlife. If one accepts the existence of unseen worlds then Occam’s Razor would lead one to accept the teachings I support.
Clay,
I would also like you to address how Krisnamurti is devastating to theosophy’s claims of Hidden masters, as he being their child prodigy and chosen world teacher of the theosophical movement, repudiated the Theosophy society, and all hidden masters as being non-existent. If you have not read Krisnamurti, he repudiates almost everything that theosophy teaches and he was raised inside the theosophy movement and chosen to be their “visible master”. I think he is devastating to theosophy claims.
JJ
I’ve always thought that the Theosophists were wrong about Krishnamurti
Clay
Also, JJ tried to argue based upon logic based upon earthly hierarchies, but a basic rule of logic is Ockhams razor, in that one does not insert supernatural beings where natural explanations suffice.
JJ
If you are an atheist and discount the higher worlds then you may have a point. If you are going to use this argument you should cease from telling us how you met Jesus and the Absolute beyond duality.
July 29, 2015
More on Duality, Dark and Light
Clay:
Alright JJ I will permanently demolish your argument of a dark brotherhood with your only valid point, the law of correspondences.
JJ
Ohhh, I am so scared. …And surprised you noted that I have a valid point. Progress perhaps?
Clay:
There is no such thing as darkness, it has no existence ontologically. It is simply the absence of existence or in this case light, it is not a something, it is a nothing, therefore unreal, non-existent.
JJ
Look up in the sky at the darkness between the stars. Why do you not see light when there is light there? When astronauts are in space the space around them is bathed with the sun’s light, but no light is seen. In the distance wherein there are trillions of rays of light from the sun only darkness is seen.
If darkness is only caused by absence of light then space should be full of visible light, and not be dark, because space is full of light. It is not until light falls upon form and there is a contrast between light and dark that light can be seen.
Neither light or dark has any meaning without both of them being in existence.
Clay:
Same with cold, it is the absence of heat, it is not an existent being.
JJ
Who in the world says heat is an existent being?
Hot and cold are caused by the frequency of the vibration of matter. The higher the vibration, or the wavelength created, the hotter it gets and it gets colder with a low frequency. Both hot and cold are caused by the frequency of the vibration which corresponds to up and down. If it goes up it gets hotter and if it goes down it gets colder. To say there is no cold or hot is to say there is no up or down. Cold and hot, up and down must both be here for either to exist and they are both here because we live in a universe of duality.
To say there is no possibility of a dark brother is to say there is no such thing as a being of light.
In this world of duality all the opposites are relative to some defined point. For hot and cold we could say that point is 68 degrees F. For up and down you could pick the point at sea level.
The same goes for light and dark as far as our application goes. We have to pick a point that divides the two. That point is the realization of the principle of freedom. The further you get from this the darker will be the mind and the closer you get the greater will be the light manifest.
If we have beings with a near perfect understanding who apply the principle then we must have the possibility of the existence of others who do not embrace this and are in darkness, or do not see that it should be applied to all on an equal opportunity basis.
Now in the ancient past humans did not have a well defined concept of maximum freedom so the defined point that divided light and dark was in a different place. Just as some may place the division between hot and cold at zero degrees F we used to have a different dividing point between light and dark, good and evil. It used to be that submission to authority was the side of light and rejection was the dark.
Now we have moved our point of reference, that which is considered light and dark has changed. Moving toward the light is now moving toward greater freedom. Moving towards blind submission to authority is now the path of darkness.
To say there is not Brotherhood of Light or Darkness is to say that there is no one joined together to support either freedom or strong control that takes it away.
Again, you make no sense.
Clay:
Game, set, match. Your dark brotherhood is a nothing, they are not real, just like the darkness you claim they represent.
JJ
Dream on. I just destroyed your false premise.
Clay
Also you keep telling me to believe in a dark brotherhood because you say so
JJ
Completely false. I do not care what you believe. I’m only talking about my least favorite subject (dark brothers) because you incessantly bring it up again and again as one possessed with the idea.
Clay:
and I say I will when you supply proof of their existence.
JJ
Turn on the news. You’ll see lots of people supporting the suppression of freedom. The only unknown to the many is how high the support of this idea goes.
Clay
I long ago gave up believing anything just on someone’s say so.
JJ
Yet you tell us you do not believe in dark brothers because of what others (mystics) say.
Clay:
It also does not line up with any of my personal experience.
JJ
Sounds like you are saying that your personal experience must have searched out all lives on all planes and found no organization anywhere that would suppress freedom for their own selfish ends.
What a guy.
Here is the personal experience of my Great Great Grandfather from his journal as an early LDS missionary that the Absolute didn’t tell you about:
“The prospect in London at that time was the darkest it had ever been in since entering the vineyard; but the Lord was with us, and we were not discouraged. On Sunday we met with the Saints three times at Brother Corner’s, read the Book of Mormon, gave instruction, and broke bread unto them. We had a good time, though there were only about half a dozen present. I felt the spirit bear testimony that there would be a work done in London.
“Having retired to rest in good season, I fell asleep and slept until midnight, when I awoke and meditated upon the things of God until 3 o’clock in the morning; and, while forming a determination to warn the people in London and by the assistance and inspiration of God to overcome the power of darkness, a person appeared to me, whom I consider was the prince of darkness. He made war upon me, and attempted to take my life. As he was about to overcome me I prayed to the Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, for help. I then had power over him and he left me, though I was much wounded. Afterwards three persons dressed in white came to me and prayed with me, and I was healed immediately of all my wounds, and delivered of all my troubles.
Wilford Woodruff By Matthias F. Cowley, Page 130
So, by your thinking, he suffered physical wounds just because there was darkness inside of him. Does not compute.
Clay:
Also, Jiddu Krishna Murti (the chosen world teacher of global theosophy , totally repudiated theosophy and the existence of any hidden masters and he was supposed to be the first visible master selected by theosophy. Again, I asked you to address how damaging Krisna Murti is to theosophical ideas of hidden masters such as DK as he claims that they do not exist. I would say he is my best evidence against your claims as the golden child of the theosophical movement totally rejected it. So why should I believe anything about channeled masters and esoteric dark brotherhoods?
JJ
He certainly was not damaging to any teaching I support. He had a falling out with the Theosophy of that time, which I probably would have too in the same situation. Instead of repudiating the existence of masters he supported it. Here are a couple quotes:
We all believe that the Masters exist, that they are somewhere, and are concerned about us ; but this belief is not living enough, not real enough to make us change.
Even though their existence be a fact, it is of no importance; for to understand you must be independent, you must stand by yourself, completely naked, stripped of all security.
He was born after HPB died so he could give no first hand testimony of any contact she had.
Clay
Also JJ you are stuck between the purgative and the illuminative state.
JJ
You do not seem to have a clue about my consciousness so if I were you I would follow the advice of Jesus and cease from judgment that may comde back to haunt you.
Clay
Finally I find it very amusing that you condemn me for relying upon “dead mystics” but you rely upon a channeled mystic from a dead channeler.
JJ
I’ve never condemned anyone in my life and I rely on my soul for what I believe. You say you rely on mystics and tradition as you give their names to support your beliefs.
***
Clay:
JJ you truly do not understand Ockhams razor. I really suggest you go read it.
JJ
I think I understand it just fine. I understand it doesn’t always rule out the supernatural, but in the context you were using it, it would.
Clay
You however violate every rule of logic by assuming supernatural beings instead of taking the logical approach and concluding that they are subconscious manifestations.
JJ
And who is this “they” you are talking about? Many things people ascribe to the supernatural is from their own minds. This does not mean that there are no such things as supernatural beings. If you look deep enough you will discover that you are a supernatural being.
It is strange. You tell us of supernatural accounts in your life and then argue against supernatural things. You come across as very inconsistent.
Clay:
So tell me JJ, why should is elect DK’s cosmology over Saint Thomas Aquinas or Diontmysus the Aerogapitr (the preeminent and foundational Christian mystic) or how about Jaob Bohme? I am totally intrigued by Bohmes mystical cosmology and his writing is absolutely soaring? So why DK and not these other equally profound teachers? Or how about Allan’s favorite, Gurdjieff?
JJ
Your question is too general and broad. If you can come up with something specific to compare then I could intelligently comment.
I handle DK just like I do any other teacher. I run the words by my soul and mind. They must pass the inner test before I fully accept them. I must relate them to principles I know to be true.
Clay:
Finally I never claimed that the Jesus I saw was real, it could have just been a projection of my higher soul self as Allan claims…
JJ
I was just quoting you. However you saw Jesus it was not natural.
One with soul contact can find more truth in the National Enquirer than one who is in illusion can find in the Bible. (Quote from the archives)
***
Heat and Cold
Richard: Sorry to be picky JJ but that is incorrect. Heat comes from the translational motion of molecules, not their vibration. But otherwise what you say about hot and cold is scientifically correct.
JJ
My understanding is that the molecules both move and vibrate faster when heated, especially in gas and liquid, but in a solid like steel it would mostly affect vibration. Here are comments from three science sites:
Thermal energy can be transferred to other objects causing them to heat up. When you heat up a pan of water, the heat from the stove causes the molecules in the pan to vibrate faster causing the pan to heat up. The heat from the pan causes water molecules to move faster and heat up. So, when you heat something up, you are just making its molecules move faster.
When heat is added to a substance, the molecules and atoms vibrate faster. As atoms vibrate faster, the space between atoms increases. The motion and spacing of the particles determines the state of matter of the substance. The end result of increased molecular motion is that the object expands and takes up more space.
Mass of the object remains the same, however. Solids, liquids and gases all expand when heat is added. When heat leaves all substances, the molecules vibrate slower. The atoms can get closer which results in the matter contracting.
Here added heat is compared to sound waves:
sound waves have a much longer wavelength (at least in the range of some millimetres) than thermal phonons (not more than a few orders of magnitude bigger than the atomic lattice scale). These small-wavelength phonons can easily scatter at any lattice impurities, while the sound waves need macroscopic pertubations (like air gaps in an insulated glazing) to do so.
Always happy to be corrected as I like to be technically accurate.
***
Joshua
Looking at the Dark Side
I had some questions though about some things you said.
You say:
The Dark Brotherhood consists of very intelligent beings, some of which are in the physical and some in etheric bodies.
Joshua:
I thought the Dark Brothers existed in their astral bodies and I believe you wrote in the past that by meditating they could manifest an image or a temporary vehicle on the etheric plane. So did you mean to say astral here or do they have permanent etheric bodies that they are able to maintain indefinitely?
JJ
First, let me apologize for taking so long to get back to you. As you may have noticed Clay has kept me pretty busy, but I should never be too busy for good friends.
You bring up an area on which I have been doing some extra contemplation and I believe I have developed a fuller picture on the subject.
DK says this about the astral plane:
The secret science of the Master of the Wisdom is the secret of how to dissipate the fogs and mist and darkness and gloom which are produced by the union of the fires in the early stages. The secret of the Master is the discovery that there is no astral plane; he finds that the astral plane is a figment of the imagination and has been created through the uncontrolled use of the creative imagination and the misuse of the magical powers.
A Treatise on White Magic, Pg 615
He further states that the astral plane only seems real for the human kingdom and it is created through the interplay of the mind and etheric matter.
Here is my conclusion about the dark brothers out of incarnation. Their consciousness is indeed astral but they dwell in etheric bodies, or in some cases bodies more dense than physical in what is called the Eighth Sphere where they are in the process of disintegration, or one interpretation of the Second Death. They project their consciousness into the astral world where their thoughtforms can interact with humanity.
Joshua
The way you state that some are in etheric and some are in physical bodies make its sound like there is a somewhat even distribution between those in the dense physical and those who aren’t. You may not have meant that, but I’ll ask my question any way just in case.
JJ
I do not know the percentage of distribution but DK does indicate that some of them are in dense physical bodies as he describes the race of a couple of them
We can use the Law of Correspondences to guide us here, A pilgrim becomes a Master after he passes the Fifth Initiation. Some of those who become masters retain their physical bodies, as did DK, to assist humanity, but others go to higher planes for other work. Those who remain in the physical have power to extend their lives in that body until their mission is complete.
Correspondingly, the Dark Brother may have some type of initiation process that gives them powers, but instead of the powers of the soul it would be seemingly magical powers on the physical and astral planes. It is quite possible he has a similar power to extend his life.
We have quite a few details about their goals and how they work, but not many about their group and form nature.
Joshua
My understanding was that the true Dark Brother was quite rare in a physical body, because the lifetime when the physical permanent atom is destroyed and the left hand path is fully and consciously chosen is the only lifetime where a dark brother can have a physical body. After that he exists on in the astral body(or if what you said above wasn’t a typo the etheric body) and can only take full possession of the physical body or a clone of an initiate who has made steps along the dark path.
JJ
I think you are right that he only lives in the one physical body, but some have gained the power to extend their lives. If someone like Hitler gained control of the planet and killed off all the lights the vibration would be low enough to allow some to incarnate again.
Joshua
Both of these instances would seem to be exceedingly rare. Maybe you are including people going down the dark path who are not yet beyond redemption as well. In my understanding they aren’t Dark brothers yet, and I believe both you and DK have said something along the lines of, if there is the smallest amount of goodness or compassion in your heart you are not yet a dark brother.
JJ
The development of any type of real dark brother is a rare occurrence as the soul works with all its incarnations with great diligence. A Dark Brother is one who consciously cuts himself off from all contact with his soul and most turn around before the point of no return is reached. Anyone, even those who are in great illusion, have not yet chosen the dark path if they have any love in their heart for their fellow men and women.
July 30, 2015
Bad Guys
Clay:
Another rule of debate is that an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence, and so far you have produced absolutely zero evidence for the existence of any dark brotherhood.
JJ
There is plenty of evidence, as there are bad guys organized all over the planet seeking to take away freedom. No one in his right mind would argue against such a thing. It is obvious that there are some organizations good and bad that the public does not know about.
Why do we have to keep repeating ourselves here when you do not make any good argument to refute this? Instead you just declare this concept to be wrong. I know you apologized, but this repetition is annoying. The class would like to learn some new stuff.
***
The Fate of the Bad Guys
Ruth had some questions
When Judas betrayed Jesus and Jesus was tortured and murdered, was this the direct result of the Dark Brotherhood, because they only go after those who can bring in significant light or who are high initiates or Disciples or even Masters of the Brotherhood of Light?
JJ
The result of all our actions are always our own decisions. Of course, we are all subject to visible and invisible or subtle influences and all must deal with them to some extent.
The average person in ordinary circumstances draws no attention from one evolved on the Left. A person has to be useful to him or a threat. Probably 99% of what people think is satanic influences upon them come from their own thoughtforms or Dweller.
Concerning Judas it is written:
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. John 6:70-71
Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. John 13:26
There were definitely invisible intelligences interested in using Judas as a pawn.
Now, there are a lot of teachers, such a Gurdjieff, who believe that Judas was the most evolved of the disciples and volunteered for this mission out of love. He claims that for the Last Supper Jesus needed to have Satan out of the picture and that by tricking him into entering into Judas that they could thus have their last meeting in peace and get closer to the love of God than any time in history.
The recently discovered Gospel of Judas also supports the idea that Judas was the best of the lot. It maintains that he was the only one of the Twelve that would have eternal life, while the rest would die physical and spiritually. That alone makes it suspicious. The text has been dated to 280 AD, during which time many odd teachings and gospels surfaced from people’s imagination.
I think the gospel story is fairly accurate on this, that one disciple was particularly out of harmony. In reality you have at least one out of twelve people who turn out to be a problem, no matter how careful you are in selecting them. Gurdjieff was right in the idea that getting the negative out of the way was useful. Just like a flock of geese can fly no faster than the slowest goose, a group can reach no higher than the person who is of the lowest vibration. One negative person in a group can prevent the whole group from making soul contact as a group. To take a group to a high point of spiritual consciousness one needs to make sure all in the group are in harmony and completely free of grievance toward anyone else in the group.
With Judas and his grievances out of the way the group could touch the spirit at the Last Supper in a way that could not be accomplished with him in attendance. I’m sure the Eleven had fond memories of the spiritual feelings they had at that event that followed them throughout their lives.
Many think that every detail had to play out as it did for Jesus to accomplish his mission, but such is not the case. For instance, Jesus could have arranged to be captured even if there was no betrayal. The betrayal certainly makes the story have more bite to it, however.
Ruth:
However, I would like to know what really went on behind the scenes and why back then?
JJ
Unfortunately, I have not focused in his life on developing the ability to read all the historical records from the Akashic records and those who claim access all produce different accounts. When we return to our souls we will have access to all true history. I am sure we spend quite a bit of time in the Hall of Records between lives. Probably a lot of people check out who killed JFK shortly after arriving there.
Ruth
Also in the case of Hitler, when he died, did he also receive a soul life review of all the evil that he did?
JJ
If he returned to his soul he did, but if not then he would be dwelling with other like minded souls of his wavelength.
Ruth
Did Hitler chose to become this person in his soul life plan before he reincarnated in that life?
JJ
We all plan our lives but often, because free will, we make decisions that takes us on a darker path than was planned. Many see in their life’s plan that they will be in difficult circumstances, such as being born in North Korea, but such circumstances are essential for the lessons needed and to balance off karma.
Ruth:
I would assume that Hitler was in a lower realm of the afterlife when he died and was surrounded by other murderers, so when he reincarnates again, and plans his next life with his soul, then what would stop him from becoming another Hitler type again in his next lifetime, after being surrounded by murderers in the afterlife? His conscious? His soul life review at death?
JJ
Assuming enough of his essence returned to the soul so another personality could be incarnated another personality from Hitler’s soul could be born. If this happened, the personality could be quite different from the original Hitler, and hopefully not as destructive. If Hitler is in the physical today he is most likely a Jew living in dangerous circumstances to diffuse his negative feelings toward that people.
***
More Arguments of Clay
JJ
Sigh. Clay insists on continuing to beat this dead horse and if I knew what was good for me I would ignore him, but it is interesting to see how long he can say the same thing over and over with slight word changes before he tires out.
The only benefit here is we do manage to shed some light on a few things.
I also encountered this challenge with Allan and an end was never reached.
Clay:
Pointing out human organizations who engage in harmful actions is zero proof of any dark brotherhood.
JJ
Sure it is. If those who desire to limit freedom exist in organizations on one level of intelligence then they will exist on another. We see that these people exist among all levels of known intelligence. Why that you would think otherwise is devoid of any explanation in your words.
This is powerful evidence that a dark brotherhood exists and you have absolutely no evidence that none exists. You keep challenging me for evidence and I deliver, but where is yours?
You have none. Nothing. Darkness. Nothing to be seen here.
Clay
I contend, no one would willingly choose to side with the darkness if they were equally convinced that the side of light existed.
JJ
Obviously, you know nothing about what the two brotherhoods are about or you would not be saying this.
Everyone chooses that which they see to be in their bests interests and members of both brotherhoods think they are choosing the best path for them. If we define light as the result of choosing correctly both groups think they are in the light just as the political left and right both think they are the most enlightened.
This is why it is essential to define the demarcation between he two, the most important of which is the Principle of Freedom. The dark side seeks to limit it and control others to fulfill their own selfish desires and the side of light seeks for maximum individual and group freedom, even if some of their personality desires have to be sacrificed.
The satellite photos show that the North Koreans dwell in great physical darkness symbolic of their spiritual darkness. Do they see themselves as dwelling in darkness and other countries as being in a greater light?
No. They think they represent the greatest light on the earth and desire to convert the rest of us by force to accept their supposedly wonderful way of life.
People cannot see light above their level of vision, but can see the degrees below. Those who are above the level of vision of the North Koreans can see the darkness in which they dwell, but to North Koreans the dim light in which they see seems to be the greatest there is.
Clay:
I don’t think that there is a single organization on the planet that is a brotherhood of darkness and are intentional working to defeat the light.
JJ
There’s a number of them. ISIS is a dark brotherhood who wants to limit human freedom (the light) and establish a world wide state that swill establish a dark rule where freedom is extremely limited. If they ruled the world a satellite photo of the planet would show most of the lights to be turned out as in North Korea at present.
Of course, like the North Koreans, they think they are in the light because that is the level of vision they are at.
Clay
They are organized either out of totally selfish motives,
JJ
You just described the motive of the dark brothers.
Clay
So, no JJ, I don’t believe in your Dark brotherhood. I believe sometimes people having very misguided ideas of right and wrong and how to achieve the greatest good.
JJ
Okay, let us change the name from “dark brothers” to “people having very misguided ideas of right and wrong and how to achieve the greatest good.”
This is very close to words I have used in the past to describe hem.
Clay:
So again JJ, show me your evidence and I will consider it.
JJ
I’ve shown you mine but you have not shown me yours. You have absolutely no proof that an organization, unknown to the masses, exists that has plans to limit human freedom to further their own selfish ends. None at all…
This must be embarrassing for you.
The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!” Matt 6:22-23
Copyright 2015 by J J Dewey
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