2009-10-27 05:12:00
[Note: Post #1 is being repeated from the previous installment in order to set the stage for the subsequent posts which follow it.]
JJ:
There are three basic views of creation.
The first two involve magic that is awkward for the reasoning mind to explain or assimilate. The third gives an explanation that at least corresponds to creation as it evolves through human intelligence.
Now the trouble with teaching view #1 is that it s pretty much summed up in the one sentence I wrote.
On the other hand, evolution is very complex and there is plenty of material to teach a number of courses.
The creationists, however, have a point in demanding fairness so I think we should allow schools to bring in guest lecturers who will present several versions of creationism so the students can be exposed to all sides of the equation.
"Cherenkov" wrote:
"When speaking of evolution, please drop the word 'magic.' There is no magic to evolution. It is a scientifically proven process."
JJ:
You need to argue with what I do say, not with what I do not say. I myself accept evolution as far as it has been concretely proven, but there are two views.
The first is that evolution just proceeds on its own through some magical process void of intelligence that is about as supernatural as God snapping his fingers and creating the world in six days.
The other view that intelligent life guides evolution toward higher forms. This is believable and does not involve magic because it is a concrete ironclad fact that intelligent life does exist and intelligence, such as human, causes things to evolve.
It CANNOT be proven that there is no guiding intelligence behind evolution, but there are many instances where it CAN be proven that things evolve because of a guiding intelligence.
"Bsu_football" wrote:
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?"
JJ:
In the short run he is not able to prevent evil.
"Bsu":
"Then he is not omnipotent."
JJ:
Correct.
"Bsu":
"Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent."
JJ:
Incorrect.
The guiding intelligence of the universe creates the power of dominating good, but there is a time factor in involved before good dominates evil, or creation is perfected.
"Bsu":
"Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?"
JJ:
Evil is that which we define to be evil, which may be much different than a more intelligent life may define it. It is impossible to have creation of any kind without the duality of creation and destruction, pleasure and pain, etc. Therefore, if you want to live in form you cannot avoid the unpleasant.
"Bsu":
"Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
JJ:
Why call your father "Father?"
"Proletariat" wrote:
"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.' - Guess who?"
JJ:
Stated by your hero, of course, Mr. Marx. He in turn inspired an even worse opiate that needs to be abolished in North Korea, Cuba, China, etc., so the people cannot have the freedom to pursue happiness and even religion.
"Zim" wrote:
"Ok Jacob, may we teach evolution in church? Is that ok with you?"
JJ:
That does not fit because the church is a place of religious teachings and evolution is not considered religion by educators.
However, many creationists present some interesting scientific arguments for their views and such views should be presented on a scientific basis so students can see both sides.
It is amazing that the Left is so sure they are 100% correct yet fear and tremble at their clones hearing another point of view. Fanatical Muslims have the same attitude.
"Larnewoman" wrote:
"Bzzzzt! Ok, now you are making stuff up. Forget many instances, please tell us ONE instance where a guiding intelligence has been proven."
JJ:
There are thousands of them.
Every computer program that has advanced beyond version one.
Your family dog.
Hybrid tomatoes you eat in your salad.
Now find me one case of evolution that has been proven to not have a guiding intelligence.
What's that I hear?
Silence.
"Proletariat" wrote:
"You have a choice to believe science and embrace rationality or believe in ideology. In the first, we get to ask questions. In the latter, the answers are provided - no questions allowed."
JJ:
And the people of Cuba really get a chance to question the decisions of your heroes, the Castro Brothers.
Marxists make religious fundamentalists look more tolerant than Mr. Rogers.
"Larnewoman" wrote:
"Natural selection operating on genetic mutations changes gene frequency; but N.S. has not been proved to involve a 'guiding intelligence.'"
JJ:
But the power to "select" anything that produces improvement can only be done by an intelligent mind and you CANNOT prove otherwise. The overpowering scientific evidence is on my side.
"Lane":
"Selective breeding changes gene frequency over time and in the case of domesticated animals or gene therapy, etc."
JJ:
And just as you cannot have selective breeding without an intelligent mind neither can you have natural selection without one.
"Lane":
"So I will rephrase my request: Joseph732, in what way do you believe the laws of physics and chemistry acting on the physical material that makes up our universe are insufficient to account for life on earth?"
JJ:
The orthodox view does not account for the fact that "selection" or choice occurs in evolution and there is no selection or choice without intelligence involved. Duh.
"Lane":
"I just want your or mine or any ones philosophy to stay out of publicly funded science class."
JJ:
We already have lots of unproven philosophy and unproven theory presented in the classroom now. Even though I do not agree with the creationists view I think they should be given some time to present their counterviews from a scientific point of view. Unlike the Left, I am not afraid of an opposing point of view.
"BoiseBlue" (BB):
"Joseph, your examples are not valid."
JJ:
And you say this because... you have some type of divine authority from God, or what?
"BB":
"Your 'evolution with a guiding hand' argument depends on a 'supernaturalthing' making it happen."
JJ:
Only if you consider life and intelligence as supernatural. Are you supernatural because you have life and intelligence?
What is really supernatural is the supposition that life evolves magically with no intelligence involved.
"Robbo":
"I've always wondered why religious people try to force their beliefs upon others."
JJ:
That's nothing compared to Obama and the Left forcing their religion of health care by quoting Jesus on us. This they do through the law of the land which is one hundred times more down your throat than preaching which you can ignore.
"Graymatter":
"The most basic definition of evolution is the passing of genetic material from one generation to another generation."
JJ:
That's not evolution. That's just the carrying out of an established internal computer program that some intelligence has engineered. True evolution produces improvement and the mere passing of genetic material doesn't do this.
"Gray":
"How can it be proven an intelligent god interferes or guides in this process?"
JJ:
This process is automatic and already programmed by some intelligence.
"Gray":
"How is this most basic fact of evolution not a given fact?"
JJ:
The passing of genetic material and evolution is not in dispute by me.
"Gray":
"Robert Pirsig: 'When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion.'"
JJ:
You've really got a chip on your shoulder against religion, don't you? Did some priest abuse you when you were a kid or something? Or maybe you are just against diversity and cannot stand those who think differently than yourself.
"Gray":
"No kidding. No different than when one man sees himself as a god in zion. Insane."
JJ:
What's with the obsession of being a god in Zion? Must be how you are trying to prop up your image. If you have low self-esteem there are better ways to do this.
"Gray":
"I wonder which version of creationism should be taught in schools?"
JJ:
I don't think creationism should be taught in schools but I think guest lectures should be allowed in if they present their ideas through the use of science. Most atheists do not even know the scientific arguments for intelligent design nor are they aware they exist.
"Larnewoman":
"Where is the 'intelligence,' for example, when genes for fat are selected in mammals that adapt to a cold climate?"
JJ:
The same place where there is intelligence in choosing to wear a coat when it is cold.
"Larne":
"Where is the 'intelligence' in genes that are preserved in a mosquito that happens to have a mutation that allows it to survive a certain pesticide?"
JJ:
And where is the intelligence when a human creates an air purifier so we can breath clean air?
All these acts obviously take intelligence to either make or program the choice.
You are arguing for intelligent design here and seem oblivious to it.
"Larne":
"There are many, many examples of selection without intelligence."
JJ:
There is no such thing as making a choice without consciousness or intelligence.
"Larne":
"Are you not aware of the many times that Creation Science has had its day in court?"
JJ:
Not a good argument. Slavery was approved by the courts at one time.
"AZeus" wrote:
"I've been reading the post here and this goes out to Joseph732 [JJ]. What is the purpose of your intelligent designer and is that purpose clearly spelled out somewhere?"
JJ:
It is a challenge to God like a challenging game is to us. He created the universe and then inhabited it. It is Its body just as our life uses our body. God works through all forms great and small to solve all the puzzles to bring the universe to ultimate perfection and in doing so many mistakes and calamities occur, even entire solar systems are wiped out. But eventually, many billions of years from now, the great game will be mastered by the One Great Life, of which we are all a part.
"AZeus":
"Did your intelligent designer explain the purpose of small pox in which a half a billion people died of it in the 20th century?"
JJ:
Just as a virus may occur in our intelligent designs, problems of all kinds occur in God's designs, but they will all eventually be solved.
The problem that religious people make is they think God is perfect, but we are in the 'image of God" and we are not perfect and neither is the greater life who is God. Perfection is an illusion.
-- End Of Part One --
[Compiler's Note: The "Local Posts" series of articles found here in "The Archives" are a collection of exchanges between JJ Dewey and others participating on a local online newspaper blog which can be read online at Idaho Statesman Letters To The Editor. These exchanges were subsequently re-posted by JJ Dewey to The Keys Of Knowledge discussion group prior to being archived here.]
Go to:
Local Posts #42, Part Two
Copyright © 2009 by J.J. Dewey, All Rights Reserved