2009-8-24 08:18:00
[Compiler's Note: The "Local Posts" series of articles found here in "The Archives" are a collection of exchanges between JJ Dewey and others participating on a local online newspaper blog which can be read online at Idaho Statesman Letters To The Editor. These exchanges were subsequently re-posted by JJ Dewey to The Keys Of Knowledge discussion group prior to being archived here.]
JJ:
What is it with Obama supporters and the question of his birth certificate? Why are they so paranoid about it? If anyone, friend or foe, even brings the subject up they act like a vampire that has been hosed with holy water.
It doesn't look like this issue is going away. Just the other day a new photo surfaced that claims to be Obama's birth certificate from Kenya. See this at:
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=105764
Obama can release a copy of the original but the resistance to doing this just looks suspicious and rumors will not quiet down until he does this. If Bush had a piece of paper that he could have released to shut up the conspiracy theories that he was behind the 911 attack or the national guard question I'm sure he would have done so.
If this is not resolved the person most likely to seriously bring this up again will be Hillary Clinton when she runs again for President in 2012.
JJ:
Note: After receiving numerous attacks and name calling for Post #1 above, I responded with the following:
I've dealt with a number of religious fanatics of the worst type but this group makes Jimmy Swaggart look like a loving open-minded soul.
First, the letters today's put the absolute closed mind on display. Unlike my critics I always study both sides of any issue. This birth certificate issue actually has two sides and instead of looking at both sides they just declare anyone who disagrees with them an "idiot" or "obtuse."
"Grandjester" (GJ) says:
"That Kenyan birth cert was debunked in hours."
JJ:
Read the article I referenced. The one I referenced has not been debunked.
"Camerafan:"
"Joseph, Sigh! Did you see or hear about the copies from two Hawaiian newspapers of President Obamas birth announcement?"
JJ:
Yes. The explanation birthers give is the ads do not say where he was born and people living in Hawaii would often announce a birth even if the baby was born off the island.
A characteristic in line with extreme religious fundamentalism is judgmentalism:
For instance "Camerafan" says:
"I have a feeling much of this movement has as much to do with veiled racism as with your political views."
JJ:
To bring racism into this is the bottom of the barrel. This charge is only used in situations like this when the mind is on default.
"Camerafan":
"I don't know why I even try to reason with you. Your mind is made up so I should know better by now not to confuse you with facts."
JJ:
Since I believe that Obama was born in the USA this must mean you are a birther yourself to make such an accusation.
You guys really must learn to argue with what I say and believe, not with what I do not say and do not believe.
My point was that this birth certificate issue could be a growing problem for Obama and he could end it by releasing the original copy of his birth certificate.
Why doesn't he do this? Maybe there is something else fishy on it other than his place of birth. Who knows?
Does anyone really disagree with what I am really saying here? You guys have to fabricate my beliefs and create a straw man to argue with me. Sad.
Even though I believe Obama was born in the USA I do not know for absolutely sure and neither does anyone here. I'd say the chances are 95% that he was born in Hawaii. Anyone that says there is a 100% chance is in the same boat as the religious fundamentalists that claim the Bible is 100% accurate.
"Grandjester" (GJ) wrote:
"No Joseph, THAT is the fake Birth Certificate, copied from an Aussie one, and the problems with it are legion, from "Republic of Kenya" which didn't exist at the time, to Mombasa, which was part of Tanzania at the time."
JJ:
You must have not read their explanation which is: Media Matters wrote, "Sorry, WorldNetDaily: Kenya wasn't a republic until Dec. 1964."
But Kenya's official independence was in 1963, and any number of labels could have been applied to government documents during that time period.
At Ameriborn Constitution News, the researcher noted that the independence process for the nation actually started taking as early as 1957, when there were the first direct elections for Africans to the Legislative Council.
"Kenya became an Independent Republic, December 12, 1963, which gives more [credibility] that this is a true document," the website stated.
"GJ"
"The Hawaiian newspaper announcements are placed based on the HOSPITAL notice, not placed by the parents."
JJ:
And you know that parents never placed such ads because...?
"GJ"
"And your 95% BS is so frakking transparent, because it is just that tiny percentage, that shred of doubt you are trying to introduce that is so insidious, so evil."
JJ:
The insidious ones are those who think they are 100% right like you and Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Bakker, Rev Wright, etc.
"GJ"
Anything to the contrary is attempting to usurp our Constitutional process and a traitor or a bat s**t crazy moron, period.
JJ:
And I'm sure you felt the same way about those who accused Bush of being complicit in 911. Right?
I'm glad you are not in charge or you would be burning people and books at the stake. To just have a question mark of 5% is being a traitor in your mind. Wow! An amoeba couldn't be more small-minded.
"Camerafan" wrote:
"Trob, that question has already answered. The hospital does not release those documents to just anyone. And if President Obama has one, he has quite enough on his plate right now and if it were me I would die before I satisfied your ridiculous assertions."
JJ:
Everyone knows the hospital or public records cannot release the original but apparently Obama can, but will not.
If there is nothing odd on the certificate then why not release it?
Another good reason for him to do so is a group of disgruntled military people are forming a class action lawsuit to get released from his command because he has not produced this. The longer Obama waits the more problems will arise. Dumb move on his part.
Personally, I hope he was born in Hawaii as I think it would tear the country apart if it were proven he was not.
"GrayMatter" wrote:
"What causes you birthers such distress?"
JJ:
Who are you talking to? It must be someone in your imagination for I haven't even seen any birthers on this forum.
"GJ"
"Here is a photo of the Aussie birth certificate that was copied to make the Kenyan one."
JJ:
I've already stated that I believe Obama was born in Hawaii so I expect the document is a forgery. Do you read my posts?
By the way that site you give says the fake document was created by a liberal blogger. Figures.
"GJ"
"And it's funny, you will not accept a perfectly legal document, produced by a State of this great Republic but are easily willing to take a proven forgery, a fraud."
JJ:
You are dead wrong as usual. I do accept the official one and reject the Kenya one. When I am 95% certain I go with the 95%. Why do you keep arguing with what I do not say?
"GJ"
"Again, either your are insane, or you have an agenda against our President, either way you are dangerous."
JJ:
Dangerous?
And my only crime is that I look at both sides and doing so believe that it would be in Obama's best interest to release the original certificate and end this distracting debate. What is insane is to be stuck in such a dogmatic Kool-aid drinking mindset that you believe what you are told without looking at both sides.
"GJ"
"I suggest you step VERY carefully before you try to compare me to right wing religious ideologues, book and witch burners."
JJ:
Are you threatening me? You are starting to sound like those right wing nut jobs that live in your closet.
"GJ"
"So yes, there is 100% certainty, no room for doubt, stone cold fact."
JJ:
Nothing political is 100% certain left or right. 100% certainty is reserved for Hale Bop Comet mentality.
JJ:
Conclusion:
The argument today comes down to this.
One the Left we have the black and white believers. For them everything has to be completely absolutely true or false with no areas of gray, even though all the facts are not in. These only are aware of one side of the issue.
On the other side, we have people like trob and me who realize that not everything is as it seems on the surface. We look at both sides and make an assessment. We think our assessment is correct, but are open to the possibility it is not. Unless God himself comes and speaks to us we cannot know for sure.
Group #1 does not allow any dissent and attacks all who consider both sides. Group #2 doesn't mind an open examination of both sides.
I am thankful to be in the latter group.
I guess group #1 think they talk with God.
"Loki":
"People, people, people...why do you continue to banter with a paid propagandist. Joseph is paid to regurgitate talking points from a daily menu of "issues." Ever notice how all of his sources point to the same handful of right wing think tank backed organizations. Put the pieces together and stop feeding this troll. Heck, he probably gets paid per post!"
JJ:
You guys are in as much illusion with me as you are about Obama, Pelosi and Reed.
I don't think the Right is hiring anyone to do professional posting and if they are it is certainly not me.
I guess it's a compliment that you think I am a professional poster.
A good portion of my sources have been references acceptable to the left wing. Today I had to use a right wing source because I was talking about the birthers point of view.
"Camerafan":
"I suspected it (that I am a paid professional) yesterday and called him out on it."
JJ:
I must have missed this. Can you repeat your call out?
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