2009-5-22 06:45:00
[Compiler's Note: The "Local Posts" series of articles found here in "The Archives" are a collection of exchanges between JJ Dewey and others participating on a local online newspaper blog, and were subsequently re-posted by JJ Dewey on The Keys Of Knowledge discussion group.]
JJ:
What a petty thing for Murphy to criticize Bill Sali [Idaho, Republican, US House Of Representatives] for seeking God's help in making an important decision. I suppose if she lived in the days of our founding she would have been a royalist criticizing General Washington in also seeking God's help many times with his course of actions.
If Murphy doesn't want to believe in God, seek God, pray to God, seek the inner voice, etc., that is fine, but why mock the majority of the country who do seek guidance from something higher than the ego?
Everyone reaches a dead end in decision making at times. When this happens the atheist may flip a coin and the believer may seek higher intelligence. Who can blame either one?
"Boise River" wrote:
"Perhaps Murphy shares my belief that we don't want elected officials praying for a solution. Instead, we should elect people who are capable of rational thinking, who know history, and are informed about current events. These are the elements of sound decision making."
JJ:
Talk about rational or irrational thinking! So you are saying that the 60-70% of the people who seek divine guidance are all not capable of irrational thinking and uniformed?
That by itself is one of the most irrational thoughts I have seen.
So, Abraham Lincoln was irrational and uninformed when he set aside a day of fasting and prayer for the nation seeking divine guidance at the start of the war? Washington too for his seeking guidance?
I'd put the rational thinking of those who seek help from a higher source against those who do not any day.
You can start with me. Try and out reason me and you'll just embarrass yourselves.
"Rac10s4me" wrote:
"Prayer is a figment of our imagination. Try just thinking once in awhile."
JJ:
Prayer is a means of linking up with and understanding Divine Thought -- the highest thinking of all.
"Kliphy" wrote:
"So Joe, you expect Sali to pray the USA into prosperity again?"
JJ:
I do not recall Sali making any promise like that. He has some good common sense thinking no matter where his thoughts came from.
"Kliphy" wrote:
"Also, if Sali has no clue and is relying on an answer from above, he's not a good candidate. A good candidate has some idea of what s/he is doing and is not sitting around waiting for a miraculous intervention."
JJ:
The complaint of the Left against Sali was not that he did nothing but wait for the Divine, but that he did too much that they did not like.
Sali is a good candidate because he understands that you cannot borrow from the Chinese to obtain prosperity and security.
I must say though I am pleasantly surprised by Minnick's common sense.
"Mikeymeitbual":
"Which higher source would that be? Thor? Ra? Elohim? Jor-El?"
JJ:
Jor-El? Must be a Superman fan. You can't be all that bad.
Just like it doesn't matter if I call you "Mikeymeitbual" or just Mike I am still talking to you. It matters not what we call God, "It" is what "It" is.
Mike:
"I see no difference between prayer and mumbling quietly to one's self."
JJ:
Sometimes that may be true. Then there are times a connection to higher intelligence is made and when it is the seeker is forever changed.
Mike:
"The people who seek divine guidance may be capable of rational thought, but certainly are not demonstrating such with belief in something that has never been proven to exist."
JJ:
DNA gives much more evidence for than against. It is logical to go with the evidence.
Mike:
"Your examples of Lincoln and Washington, as though those men were infallible, contribute nothing to your argument."
JJ:
Even liberal historians say they are our greatest presidents -- two men who leaned on divine guidance.
Mike:
"I'm not a Superman fan. I like the story, but not enough to be called a fan."
JJ:
To bad.
Mike:
"Thor, Ra, and Elohim are three distinctly different deities. This is indicated by the stark differences in their associated mythologies. Do you believe in and worship Thor or Ra?"
JJ:
All the gods of the past represent aspects of Deity that the people are capable of comprehending. They are all names of the same God.
Mike:
"Please tell me when these connections to higher intelligences have been made and who made the connection."
JJ:
Millions of people have made some type of undeniable connection. Probably someone in your family has. Ask three people and chances are one can relate a divine experience.
Mike:
"Regarding DNA... huh? How does DNA provide evidence for the existence of God? Complexity does not necessitate design."
JJ:
And you think this because? So you think something complex like a computer (much less complex than a human) can be created without a guiding intelligence?
Not logical.
Mike:
"You still have not explained how that validates your assertion that divine guidance is better than no divine guidance."
JJ:
You haven't asked. Divine guidance is better because the Source is of greater intelligence. More intelligence is better than less intelligence.
Mike:
"Hitler relied on supposed divine guidance."
JJ:
He never used the phrase "divine guidance" even once. He used the word "providence" which has a different application and has nothing to do with prayer.
Interestingly there is only one record of a prayer by Hitler. He asked: "Lord God, give us the strength that we may retain our liberty for our children and our children's children, not only for ourselves but also for the other people's of Europe."
Looks like God answered that prayer with an Allied victory giving Germany and Europe freedom.
Mike:
"Additionally, you're assuming there is such a thing as divine guidance or higher intelligence. What logic and reason do you have to support that assertion?"
JJ:
Experience.
Mike:
"Joseph, I have a 3-strikes rule when it comes to discussions of these nature. If you use 3 logical fallacies, I'm wasting my time because your grasp of logic and reason is such we have no common ground on which to stand. You exceeded your 3 fallacy limit with the following:
- "Argument from design;
- "Hasty generalization;
- "Appeal to authority;
- "Appeal to belief;
- "Biased sample;
- "Post hoc;
"And right there is where I got tired of counting."
JJ:
I think you must be talking about yourself here. Outside of hasty summaries because of text restrictions none of that applies to me.
Just give me one example of the creation of something as complex as a computer that manifested without the aid of an intelligent hand? Something provable.
If nothing provable exists then you have no argument.
On the other hand, if you stumble across a computer just lying in the road it is its own proof that an intelligence was behind its creation. No one in his right mind would doubt such a thing.
Even so a human cell alone is proof of an intelligent hand.
Experience is solid proof to the one going through it but not the one being told of it. Fortunately, the proof of God through experience is available for all who seek.
"The most overlooked advantage to owning a computer is that if they foul up there's no law against wacking them around a little."
-- Joe Martin, Porterfield
Copyright © 2009 by J.J. Dewey, All Rights Reserved