2008-11-27 03:24:00
Note to MrNirom: Please pass this along to your Daheshist friend.
MrNirom wrote:
"I sent JJ's comments back to the person who originally sent me the info on Dr D.
"Here is his response copy and pasted:"
Daheshist Follower:
"When we trust only 'reason,' our brains can fail us, as yours did you.'"
JJ:
No one is talking about trusting "only reason," but since all truth from God is reasonable then to abnegate reason is foolish indeed.
Daheshist Follower:
"For example, here is where your arguments fall apart...completely. I'm being more than kind to you."
JJ:
And where is this kindness representative of a follower of Christ? I see no evidence of it here.
Let us go examine the eight points you so kindly attacked.
Point One: Initiation. Christ initiated a movement and teaching that attracted billions of followers. Dahesh has only 40,000 worldwide.
Of course it is remotely possible that he could accumulate a large following over a period of time.
Daheshist Follower:
"Actually, Dahesh has more like 4,000."
JJ:
The sites dedicated to him then need to make a correction. Both www.daheshism.com/, www.angelfire.com/mo3/dahesh/LIFE.html and others use the figure 40,000.
Daheshist Follower:
"At His death, Jesus had maybe 120 followers. By 100 A.D , most historians and scholars estimate that Jesus had somewhere between 5000 and 10,000. Your argument fails, because, to compare Jesus to Dahesh, one must wait for 2,000 years to see how many followers Dahesh has, otherwise, it is not a honest comparison."
JJ:
I leave open the possibility that he could accumulate a large following over a period of time.
In a single day, the day of Pentecost, the Church added 3000 to their group and you're telling me that in another 70 years they may have added only 2000 more? I don't think so. The apostles went to many lands and converted many thousands shortly thereafter.
In addition to this Dr.Dahesh gathered disciples from the age of 20 to 75, a period of 55 years compared to three years for Jesus. If Jesus had 55 years to teach in Jerusalem he would have had many more than 120 devout followers at his crucifixion. In fact he had thousands of casual followers beforehand, but all but a few were dispirited by his apparent death.
It has been about 90 years since Dahesh began teaching. With the advantages of modern communications you would think a Christ figure would have made in this day as much progress as did the Christians within the same period with none of our technology.
Point Two: It looks like the main thing he has going for him is his attested miracles. As far as I can tell there are no groundbreaking teachings or works like those presented by Jesus which are necessary to create great change or attract a large following.
Daheshist Follower:
"Groundbreaking teachers? I have NO idea what you mean by this argument. It is completely nonsensical."
JJ:
I said "teachings" not teachers. Buddha gave the groundbreaking teaching of the Middle Way, Jesus gave groundbreaking teachings on love and kindness. Both of these relied on the students seeing the principle behind the teaching. Where is the groundbreaking teaching from Dahesh, which always comes from a Christ figure? He does give us some interesting data about life in the galaxy but where does he expand on a principle that can be grasped by the human heart?
Point Three: Jesus taught his disciples how to make a spiritual connection so they could perform the same miracles that he did. There seems to be no record of followers performing miracles like Dahesh did.
Daheshist Follower:
"Yes, I know of dozens of examples of Daheshists performing miracles via the Ramz, a special rite that Dahesh taught His followers. I personally know of dozens, but I'm sure there have been thousands."
JJ:
I can't find any testimony of this on any of the websites. Jesus told his disciples that they would do even "greater things" than he did and indeed they performed many mighty miracles and works that attracted even more attention than their Master. Where are the followers who have power equal to Dahesh?
If all it takes is to follow the ceremony of Ramz then the followers should be able to create miracles as impressive as Dahesh, such as physically producing tomorrow's newspaper. Anyone done anything like that?
Are the details of performing the Ramz available to the public or is it passed down in person? I would like more information on it if it is available.
Point Four: Dahesh was apparently quite wealthy and gathered millions of dollars worth of art and additional millions of dollars worth of books in his 250,000 volumes in his private library.
I think art is an important part of society, but it seems odd that a Christ figure would spend so much money collecting it.
Daheshist Follower:
"Why would Jesus collect art? Would this be something Jesus would do? If Dahesh is Jesus reincarnated, then, yes, Jesus would not only do this, but did it."
JJ:
But you didn't answer my question. Jesus told people who were rich in possessions, such as art, to sell them and give the money to the poor. I realize we live in different times and a different approach may be needed, but he did say our heart is where our treasure is and fine art is a fairly worldly treasure compared with other things that could be pursued - such as helping the downtrodden, or even paying scholars to translate and publish his books.
Point Five: He is called a Doctor even though he has only about a year for formal education. I cannot find an explanation for this.
Daheshist Follower:
"Dahesh NEVER claimed any formal education past 3 months in an orphanage at the age of 11. He was granted an honorary doctorate by the Sage Institute of Paris (now defunct) in 1930. Dahesh never pretended He had an earned doctorate. It is doubtful that Jesus attended any Rabbinical School, although there was a large one in Sephoris, just 4 miles from Nazareth. Yet, He told His disciples to call him 'Rabbi.'"
JJ:
Thanks for the explanation. I see from the web his doctorate was given in psychism. I suspect that such a doctorate was something like these mail order degrees we see so much of. Jesus was only called Rabbi once in the scriptures and there is no evidence he requested to be called such. He discouraged the use of titles.
Point Six: The followers of Christ were aggressive in taking the Masters message to the world and presenting teachings without cost. Even though Dahesh wrote 150 books I can't find one for sale at Amazon and I can't find a way to order any of his books that are published. You'd think they'd publish a couple of his books on the web and make them available for download.
Daheshist Follower:
"The fact that Dahesh has no books on Amazon mean He can't be Jesus reincarnated? What sort of ABSURD argument is this?"
JJ:
It is not absurd at all. Three years after Jesus began his ministry in Jerusalem he sent his followers into all the world. Now, 90 years after Dahesh began his, he doesn't even have a book on Amazon. Doesn't seem to be following the Jesus pattern of promotion.
Daheshist Follower:
"Dahesh told His followers to offer His books in Arabic to the Arabs FIRST, then once they reject Him, to take His teachings to the non-Arabs. That time has not happened yet. One day, Dahesh's books will be everywhere. But that day has not yet arrived."
JJ:
Yet to become a Daheshist one must "to live by The Book of Daheshism," and also to promote it. I understand this book has not even been translated into English so how is it possible that you are even a Daheshist if you cannot fulfill the promise?
Point Seven: Suppose you do think he was an incarnation of Christ, what then? There is no plan of action outside of suggesting we accept him as a Christ figure. Seems kind of an odd legacy for a master.
Daheshist Follower:
"If we think He is the incarnation of Christ what then? Declare oneself a Daheshist and begin to spread His message, via the Internet at first. That is what. Learn the Ramz ritual, to help others heal."
JJ:
But how can one become a Daheshist if he can't even read the required book that he is to promise to live by to become a member? Like I said there seems to be no plan of action and the plan of salvation is merely a repetition of that which was already taught by Jesus.
And is the Ramz ritual available to learn?
Point Eight: He died at the age of 75 of a heart attack. You'd think a Christ figure would live to be at least 100 before he would die of natural causes.
Daheshist Follower:
"Jesus would have lived to 100 had He re-incarnated? Where did you get that? All physical bodies die. What the disciples saw was an Ethereal body of Jesus (who had 6 of them), not Jesus' physical body, ascend into the sky."
JJ:
When Jesus approached death he said "Father, receive my spirit" and gave up the ghost. You would think that Dahiesh correspondingly would have just voluntarily left his body rather than to be forcibly taken with a heart attack.
It also does not make sense that he would die after an only average lifespan when much less enlightened souls have lived much longer though their own wisdom. Imagine, if he could create the miracle of living to 150 years or more. Then people would really pay attention.
I have a couple questions for you.
Why do you believe that Dahesh is the coming of Christ? Is it reason alone or something else? If it is reason then what is the reason?
I read in Dahesh literature that he never made the proclamation of the prophesied false messiah of saying "I am Christ." What then makes followers think he is Christ?
It is said that Dahesh is the 20th incarnation of Jesus. How many of the other 19 besides Dahesh are given? It is said he was Buddha, but Buddha lived before Christ and Jesus was supposed to be reborn 23 additional times after the first century.
Copyright © 2008 by J.J. Dewey, All Rights Reserved