I'll see what I can do here in harmonizing your apparent disagreement with my writings. I don't see much problem in the first part of your epistle.
I realize that women (and some men) get stuck in relationships where the other person walks over them. If a relationship is not working, the thing to do is to move on as you say. Staying in a bad relationship has little to do with forgiveness in my opinion. It is usually more of a problem of attachment.
"It is also interesting how seemingly different karmic patterns lock into each other, one keeps 'forgiving' rather than moving on, and one keeps repeating 'acts' of ignorance rather than choosing to grow."
I would say a better wording here is that "one stays attached rather than moving on." One can forgive and either move on or stay. You stay in a relationship because the positive outweighs the negative; forgiveness always helps, but is not always the deciding factor.
Zia: "To me forgiveness is necessary because of our judgment of ignorance or 'ignorant acts' as good or evil, and our potential ultimate blame of God."
Why would forgiveness be necessary because of our judgment of ignorance or 'ignorant acts' as good or evil? I do this all the time. So who is to forgive??? Do you need to forgive me or do I need to forgive someone? I'm having difficulty in making sense of where you're going here.
Zia: "Many keep forgiving but find no results or relief!!"
JJ: If they find no results or relief then the forgiveness is an illusion that must be uncovered. True forgiveness always brings results and relief. In order to forgive you must first feel that someone has wronged you. If you truly let go of this feeling, or resolve it, there will be results of a positive nature even if the wrong was an illusion.
Zia: "It so reinforces to me the pointlessness of judging karma as good or bad, or as negative or positive, because we become more locked in to forgiving what needs no forgiveness, but rather simply needs our choice as to whether this is what we wish to continue to experience and/or then how to change the experience. It is often our judgment we are forgiving!!
Karma is effects that are waiting to materialize because a cause is placed energy into motion.
If you therefore claim to live in a world where there is no effect that is good or evil, pleasant or unpleasant, blissful or painful, hot or cold, light or dark, I would say you are in a place that is different than that occupied by anyone I have ever met or could meet.
If you stick your hand in boiling water, I would say that by all practical standards the effect would be an evil, negative, painful unpleasant thing. This is a judgment that most people I know would make and such a judgment certainly needs no forgiveness.
Zia quoting me: "As far as karma goes this is a law that applies to the principle of justice. Justice is a principle of action and reaction whereas forgiveness always involves feelings."
Zina's Response: "But, my feeling is here, that it is the 'feelings' that create the action or reaction. And feelings are based on past judgments."
"That is why I also see forgiveness as a part of everything here, especially karma. And that in forgiving my 'feelings' I dissolve the patterns of karmic action or reaction. Now I am free to create and manifest exactly according to my creation."
JJ: Feelings, thought, preprogramming and other influences cause action. You can make your future more positive by changing your feelings, but karma has to do with causes from the past and you cannot change that. The best we can do with energy set in motion (effect), is to direct it wisely. (Take your hand out of the burning water immediately).
Ziaa quoting me: "Even if a person is in a state of complete forgiveness, or complete peace of mind, he is still subject to the laws of karma or cause and effect."
Zia's response: "Now this is where I start to come unstuck with JJ.
Forgive me JJ, this is important to me."
"Karma and cause and effect are dualities. To me a complete state of forgiveness would be in a state of love, a 'state for giving love' that is whole mind, one with all creation. In a state of wholeness, oneness, the thought 'IS', not action/reaction. The thought and the actuality are one."
"No separation, no duality. It must therefore be that our judgment creates the separation from this state of mind, causing duality and karma. (That judgment is our feelings...)The true feeling then becomes the 'joy of the ISNESS' in the manifestation. It is one."
JJ: I could about write a book on this, but I will limit myself to a few comments:
Zia: "Karma, and cause and effect are dualities."
Zia: "To me a complete state of forgiveness would be in a state of love, a 'state for giving love' that is whole mind, one with all creation. In a state of wholeness, oneness, the thought 'IS', not action/reaction."
JJ: Without duality there can be no love. There can be no love unless there is two of something. One of the great purposes that God created the universe was so love could become manifest. If God had not created us there would be nothing to love. What would a point outside of time and space love?
Thought is not an IS. Thought is part of BECOMING and thus created action and reaction.
Zia: "The thought and the actuality are one. No separation, no duality. It must therefore be that our judgment creates the separation from this state of mind, causing duality and karma."
JJ: This may have a grain of truth to it in the formless worlds. But we are not there. We are here and thought and actuality are not one in this reality. In this universe thought and actuality are separated by time. I may think of getting a new car but before I actually get it I must pass through the separation of time and some effort. If you can think of a new car and have one materialize immediately I would like to become your disciple and learn the principle.
Karma exists whether you are one with love or separated from love. Love does not negate the energies of the universe but is one of those energies.
Zia: "That judgment is our feelings..."
JJ: Judgment is more a thinking process than feeling - it is a power to discern.
Zia: "The true feeling then becomes the 'joy of the ISNESS' in the manifestation. It is one."
JJ: Only BECOMING can manifest. ISNESS is that which is not in manifestation.
Love, as human beings understand it, can only manifest through "becoming"in the world of duality. Where there is no duality there is no power of attraction, for there is nothing to be attracted to. Where there is no attraction there is no love. If we want to manifest love we need to make the best of the world we find ourselves in.
You seem to disagree with my remark that we are subject to gravity and we must deal with it wisely or suffer negative effects. I take it then you have never had a fall or stubbed your toe?
After I fell down the stairs I neutralized the effect of gravity by using a nightlight. Funny thing the danger of falling down the stairs is now gone.
There may be some hidden message in my fall but the main one I see for myself is to pay more attention to the outside world. I spend a lot of time inside myself and have to remind myself regularly that there is a world out there of cause and effects so I can avoid accidents.
Zia: "For me this (karma) keeps so many bound to 'trying to do good and be of service' and not resolving the unconscious patterns of repetition that keep their karma repeating and repeating."
JJ: What is wrong with trying to do good and being of service? Am I then a bad guy for attempting to do good for the people on this list and serving them?
Service does not keep us from resolving patterns, but reveals solutions in the long run.
Zia: "It also causes those to sacrifice their life 'as they understand Jesus did' to save someone else."
JJ: I don't see Karma as a motivating factor. When I have sacrificed to help others I had love in mind rather than karma.
Zia: "So many women sacrifice so much in the hope of it giving them what they want, the 'cash out' of the money in that bank. I just cannot see it this way at all. Love gives for its own sake, it is for giving, and exists only in the giving. It is not about building up good and bad karmas."
JJ: If I understand you correctly I agree with this statement.
Zia: "I feel for all of us on the list, when something is occurring in our life, that it is the most important thing, not necessarily just the topic of the list at the time. For me it all is one, the topic would bring up what needs to be addressed, and we must look at it completely and apply everything we know, even if not the topic of the moment. Because for that person, what is occurring is very important, and if nothing is occurring, are we really learning or just studying philosophy? Jill is a part of me feeling 'off balance perhaps, disharmonious perhaps' and seeking direction and clarification. Is something more important than the soul reaching up and out to understand, and then the applications of the keys of knowledge (all the principles) directly applied to gain understanding and wisdom?"
JJ: I agree that when someone in the group has a need and there is anything others can do to help, we should be right there with assistance. That is one of the things I appreciate about the people on this list. If anyone even gives a slight hint that they need assistance, someone immediately comes forward to help.
The important thing is to not be silent if there is anything members of the group can do. I hope Jill and others share more of their concerns and needs with us.
Copyright 1999 by J.J. Dewey, All Rights Reserved