2007-2-6 04:54:00
I thought for the record I would post some dialog I have had on another list. It never ceases to amazes me how people distort the teacher-student relationship. They seem to go one extreme or the other instead of looking for the balance of the Middle Way.
The person I am having the discussion with in this article is a college teacher -- a professor I believe. We'll just call him "Reader."
Post 1:
Reader:
"Carnal man seems to be prone to get things bass-ackwards. It's really amazing to see how artfully it's done. Jesus said he would set us free, but no one really believes that. There is waaay too much of this leader-obsession in us to comprehend that free means free.
"Do we need leaders? No. We never did. We desired them, so we got them. Even in Jesus' own disciples' case, they found out what that meant. They believed that Jesus would set them free, but he led them to a crucifixion... it scared the hell out of Peter who denied who he was. 'Oh crap, I thought it was going to be different than this!'"
"And so it was... so it is.
"'Without leaders we are lost.' Whoever said that didn't understand what is going on and why that's a lie. Leaders are usurpers who we've put in their place. That last statement is true for everyone."
JJ:
If you believe we need no teachers then you must believe that we need to eliminate all schools with their teachers and all books which were written to teach.
If you believe we need no leaders then you must think a company can run itself with no management whatsoever. If this were feasible then we would see it occur somewhere and it has not.
If you are making the point that most rely too much on teachers and leaders I agree, but to go the other extreme is just as great of an error as the blind following the blind.
Post 2:
JJ:
In this post I quoted an introductory post I made to the Keys back in 1998 that summarizes my views on the teacher-student relationship.
This post can be read at:
The Student-Teacher Relationship
Post 3:
Reader:
"The need for a teacher/leader presumes something doesn't it? It presumes that we are going somewhere... that we need to get something done. It presumes that things are (now) out of order...that things need to be put back in order."
JJ:
One thing that Joseph Smith taught that was correct was the idea of Eternal Progression. Yes, we are going somewhere but we are not working on restoring an old order but making "all things new." We are going where man or God has not gone before and working on new creation and new orders that have not exactly manifested before.
The greatest hell is to have nothing new to create. Hell is creating that which has been over and over until boredom becomes so great that the life force flatlines.
Reader:
"Carnal man busies himself about in trying to obtain what he lost. What he doesn't realize is that what he's lost is something he's forgotten. Maybe all he needs to do is remember."
JJ:
It's silly to think we came here just to forget and then remember. Why would God even be behind such a crazy notion? We came here as a point in our eternal progression, not to restore that which is lost but to gain that which is new and beautiful.
Reader:
"What if everything is perfect? What if God was really good at what we say he didn't do or couldn't do...create a perfect world? What if what is going on right now is eternal life?"
JJ:
If everything were perfect we wouldn't be here to begin with and there would be no illusion, which is imperfect. We would not be disagreeing and would all see perfectly the same. Obviously this is not the case.
Reader:
"If that's the case, we can indeed play follow-the-leader, live in hell, be hell, suffer, act foolishly...or not. What I find interesting is that there is a denial...a denial that the last two words of that previous sentence (or not) is not."
JJ:
So the twelve apostles were in hell because they followed Jesus? Interesting.
The denial seems to be on your part that there is much imperfection around us and much that is not organized as well as it could be.
Reader:
"'God couldn't create a perfect world.' Isn't that what we are saying when we say things are not right. 'God isn't intelligent enough, powerful enough, or interested in it.'"
JJ:
God did not create a perfect world because there is no such thing as perfection within the world of form. What is the perfect diamond, the perfect look, the perfect color, the perfect flower? What is perfect is what we define as perfect, or cannot be improved upon, and each person has a different idea of what that is. A perfect world to one may be hell to another. God cannot create a perfect world for you and me because we define and see perfection differently.
Reader:
"Well, I used to believe in that too. Until I started to dream a better dream...that came true. Well, it didn't come true, because it was always true, but it was denied so that it might be comprehended... this illusion of kings and queens, priests and priestesses...yeeeeeeech."
JJ
You are arguing against a straw man here. I made no mention of "queens, priests and priestesses." I have talked about students, teachers, leaders and followers - something you must believe in because your profession is that of a teacher.
Reader:
"He who leads into captivity goes into captivity...because it must be that way. We experience what we create. All get to dream a better dream when they decide the old one no longer works. Anything new here? Well...NOT YET!"
JJ:
It is interesting that you criticize me for believing that teachers are necessary but you yourself are a teacher. But then you excuse yourself by indicating that when dealing with the physical plane teachers are necessary but not in spiritual matters. Yet what are you doing on this list? You are teaching spiritual matters. Then you say all is perfect, but go out of your way to explain how imperfect I am and am leading into captivity. It is a strange cornered position you find yourself in.
Post 4:
Reader:
"Why all this talk about 'soul contact' from someone who promotes religious leaders?
"It seems reminiscent of the LDS experience where one is first showed the passage in James to ask of God, then...YANK!!!! ...the hooks set...now reeling in the next meal.
"After 'mishies' get the poor fish hooked, then it's 'Oh...you got to FOLLOW THE PROPHET!'"
JJ:
I don't follow your logic. Soul contact led me out of the church and NEVER told me to follow the prophet without thinking. Soul contact freed me and others from outer authorities. You are arguing using a straw man again and the straw man does not apply to anything I have taught.
Maybe I misjudged you. I thought you believed in contacting the inner self to get your doctrine. If not then what do you consider to be the source of your dialog here? Obviously it is not the prophet. Perhaps you just consider your ideas as originating from the thoughts passing through the computer brain.
Reader:
"And few think life is very funny. Well, it's better than funny. When we find its abundance, that is. Got to go on out on our own to do that. And throw all those leaders back to the sharks."
JJ
Perhaps (Name withheld) should throw you to the sharks then because you can tell by her praise of you that she considers you a teacher and leader in her life. Without you she would not have come to the place and realization that she is now.
Reader:
"JJ. You never told us who is your leader. Come clean and tell us. It can be your first step to letting go."
JJ:
I am not a member or dedicated to any organization or church so I do not have "a leader." I have, and have had, many leaders and teachers, however.
The Christ is number one for inspiring me to higher paths. Djwhal Khul who worked with Alice A. Bailey is number two. Joseph Smith, the prophets and other teachers are also right up there.
I attempt to honor all my political leaders. As imperfect as they are, some of their leadership is good and worthy of following.
I hear and read of numerous people who come up with ideas and initiatives in many areas of life worthy of supporting and following.
I run all things from all leaders by my soul for this is the final judge. Then I support those leaders who point in directions that are in harmony with the inner spirit.
You seem to think I must have some leader to whom I give supreme authority and this idea is far removed from anything I teach or practice.
Reader:
"I used to read things from folks who seemed to know more than me. A lot of these folks idolized a group called the Great White Brotherhood...a supposed group of highly evolved beings who lead mankind spiritually out of kindness. One of the persons who became a disciple was Alice Bailey who is the same who was involved in starting Lucifer Trust.
"At first, I was confused at what they said...it seemed so profound and much better than one gets around this neighborhood.
"Later, I came to comprehend it...one of those epiphanies, for lack of a better word.
"These folks could talk great, but they didn't appear to get what they, themselves, were saying."
JJ:
It doesn't sound like you read more than a couple pages of the Bailey material. It was transmitted by one person, a Tibetan named Djwhal Khul -- and not "folks." If you have studied him at all you would know that he was extremely self-aware and knew exactly what he was saying.
Reader:
"This seems to go on all the way up and down the Hierarchy.
"That's why. See it?
"Hierarchy.
"Lead into the heirarchy, go into it. There is a man...a man pointing to an open box, saying ... 'Climb into this box, my disciple...climb into this box and be free in there.'"
JJ:
Another straw dog here that has nothing to do with anything I teach. The existence of a hierarchy does not mean you have tyrants who order you to mindlessly jump. There are good leaders and bad leaders. It is as simple as that, just as there are good teachers and bad teachers. I'm sure you consider yourself one of the good teachers - speaking of you professionally.
Reader:
"And the people push and shove to be the first!"
JJ:
The lesser evolved shove to be first. The more advanced push forward without thought of first or last but for the pure joy of service, benefiting the whole and moving ahead to the new plateau of realization.
Reader:
"All the while failing to comprehend the joyous comedy in what we do...a comedy of tragedies. Take heart, we will all someday look back and laugh heartily at ourselves...and those we once worshiped as leaders."
JJ:
Another straw dog. I have never worshipped a leader; neither does anyone who is centered in the soul.
Reader:
"At that time, the so-called Great White Brotherhood will have fallen off of their mountain of sand to everyone else's level. And they won't like it either. Why? Because they don't comprehend what they, themselves, say."
JJ:
The Great White Brotherhood is defined as Christ and his inner disciples. Anyone who believes in Christ and that he does not work alone believes in the Brotherhood. Of course, one could claim that someone he does not agree with is not in contact with the true Christ, but that is another matter of debate. I think most people on this list believe in Christ and that he is surrounded by co-disciples. They may call this group by different names, but a rose is a rose by any other name.
You really seem bent on leading us into nonleadership - an oxymoron for sure. Or perhaps not. Maybe you are really pushing and shoving to be the leader.
Post 5:
Reader:
"Well, I thought the logic was clear as the sun shining, but I'll ask again. You write paragraphs like that above...saying that one needs to go within rather than seek leaders...ok. Ok, I think we are ok up to here. But, then you claim that leaders are essential (needed). What??? To me, it seems like talking out two sides of the mouth. I don't know how to be plainer...but, just the same...I'll ask it another way...again...same fundamental question. If we can find truth within, then why do we need hierarchies of authority at all?"
JJ:
The problem here is you are trying to put me in some box, stereotyping me with some group that exists within your mind.
I have not taught that we can find truth by going within alone. I have taught that going within is just half the process. The other half is being stimulated from without. We must be planted with seed thoughts and ideas from without and then verify and expand the essential truth from within. Both the within and the without are necessary to find the truth. If one seeks to find truth by going within only then he will find nothing that relates to truth within the worlds of form whereupon we reside.
As proof of this take a look at those who have had no outside stimulation and only had the world within from which to learn. Perhaps you've read stories of young children who were locked in a room by sick parents for many years and left there with nothing but their inner world to ponder.
What is interesting is that if such a child was placed in that situation at the age of 6 and released at the age of 12 then he will still see himself as a 6 year old and act as a 6 year old. It is as if he has learned nothing for six years, not even his true age.
This illustrates that we need the outside stimulation to learn.
We must be stimulated from the outside and then verify from the inside.
Reader:
"Why the pyramidal structures of leaders upon leaders per the popular view held in Mormonism? ...or (outer) government?"
JJ:
Hierarchy was not invented by the Mormons. It has always existed and always will. Without leadership and hierarchy civilization would fall apart and disintegrate into chaos.
The reason there is such a chaos in Iraq, for example, is that there is not a hierarchy which is followed by the populace. There will continue to be chaos until such leadership is established and respected.
This does not mean that an enlighten person follows mindlessly, but it is indeed mindless to not follow or support anything.
No support of structure leads to collapse of structure. When there is no structure you have anarchy where gang rule prevails.
Reader:
"PS. I think your aren't shooting straight either."
JJ:
I always shoot straight. You aren't seeing straight.
Reader:
"For one thing, your straw man argument is a straw man."
JJ:
But it is an accurately corresponding straw man. Yours was not.
Reader:
"The question is whether we go within then follow leaders as opposed to going within rather than follow leaders. Some folks tend to follow the former, while I tend to think it's the latter."
JJ:
So do you follow your leaders and pay your union dues as they insist? Do you follow what you are told in your job so you get your paycheck? I'll bet you just don't take a month off without telling anyone, even with the laxity of the educational system.
Do you follow your leaders and pay your taxes?
Do you slow down when the authority figure of a cop is following you or do you follow your inner self and go fast if you feel like it?
This is where the discussion left off.
"The ability to see beauty is the beginning of our moral sensibility. What we believe is beautiful we will not wantonly destroy."
-- Reverend Sean Parker Dennison
Copyright © 2007 by J.J. Dewey, All Rights Reserved