One More Try

2006-6-18 05:18:00

John C writes:

This topic is beyond boring. It's become a tedious waste of time and energy.

Thanks for your comments John. I'd guess you represent about half the group and appreciate your patience on this. In some ways the topic of determinism is about as mental to try and prove or disprove as the moon being made of green cheese. I take responsibility for letting the subject drift this direction and have allowed it for two reasons:

  1. I like to have some coverage of all major subjects of interest so when it comes up in the future, instead of arguing it again, we can just refer the new people to the archives and let them get the information there while we move on.
  2. Dean and several others do seem to have some interest in it. It seems to be very important to Dean as he seems to need some enlightenment on the subject before he can move on to other things.

That said, I think we are close to covering all pertinent material and will be moving on shortly. I have an interesting observation I will shortly make which may close the subject.


I found a key and now I already admit that I am half wrong about this. You are also half wrong.

You forget that I was not arguing a black and white extreme as you were, but my teaching already pretty much agrees with Kybalion. I haven't studied it all but from what I have read it seems to be in harmony with the arguments I have been making to you. I do not find anything in the Kybalion that contradicts any teaching I have given out outside of the use of the term "infinite."


If you understood what you quoted in that text you read you would understand that our argument is two sides of the same thing.

This type of speech is just a matter of how you define your terms.


You are fairly difficult to irritate I heard but I think I did it. Not that I was trying.

No, you didn't irritate me, but I do not see arguing something that should be so obvious as being a very fun thing to do.


When you understand where I am coming from then I will feel like I can move on.

I think I do understand quite clearly where you are coming from. Just because I do not agree with you does not mean I do not understand.


I have not spoken to Woody about spiritual stuff for over a month.

I found it interesting that he singled you out as one of similar vibration to him from the beginning. He thinks he was Hermes and now you have taken great interest in the writings of Hermes. Maybe he sensed a true connection.


He's not that bad of a guy he can be fairly intelligent. I'm not in a alliance against you if that's what your thinking.

I have never seen you or Woody as being against me. I like you both. I was just trying to figure out why you were so enamored with the Kybalion. It seems to have spoken to you.

Dean quoting me:

The text I read says: "We do not wish to enter into a consideration of Free Will, or Determinism, in this work, for various reasons. Among the many reasons, is the principal one that neither side of the controversy is entirely right--in fact, both sides are partially right, according to the Hermetic Teachings."


Do you understand why they are both partially right?

Yes. But what you do not understand is that I am not taking the opposite view to yourself which the Kybalion refers to as being half right.

You believe that all things are set. The opposite would be that nothing is set, that nothing could be predicted. This is not my half-right view. My view is that many things are set and can be predicted, but not all.


Infinite is what makes it unknowable.

And you know this because? All God needs to do to be unknowable is out imagine us.


Sometimes I wonder how you can ignore something so simple like you are trying to avoid it.

I haven't ignored it, but you have ignored my answers and my logic.


Please prove how finite can exist without the infinite.

Prove that there is such a thing as an infinite point. You cannot. This is like arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Dean quoting me:

All one could say is that he doesn't know what the dickens it is, how big it is, how smart it is or any of its characteristics.


Or we could understand that finite could not exist without infinite.

Or we could say neither exists in the true reality for both concepts are created through the principle of illusion.


...You said there is no infinite for god. Except outside time and space. [there can be no such thing as outside of time/space]

This is vague here. Either it exists or it does not exist which one do you believe?

Infinite and finite only has meaning in time and space where there exist worlds of form. In the higher formless planes finite and infinite has no meaning. All possibilities are there without beginning or end. I have written somewhat about the higher worlds already and do not want to repeat myself. My mission is to make change in the world where we presently reside.


Minus 459 is a number that you cannot define precisely. You can never be 100 percent exact about it.

There is no need or purpose to have an exact number in fractions. The closest whole number for absolute zero is exactly minus 459 degrees Fahrenheit. This is an accepted scientific fact. Matter can never be minus 500 degrees Fahrenheit in this reality. No one is even arguing about this.


How many parts or numbers between 1 and 2? An infinite amount.

But a specific number always comes up in any calculation. The infinite number is never reached because it does not exist. Why do I have to keep repeating this? People are getting bored with repetition here.


Just as you can never precisely point out the centre of a circle you can never point out what exactly minus 459 is.

Incorrect. Absolute zero is reached when the molecules of matter cease vibrating in relation to each other. This is a scientific fact that is not in dispute.

Dean quoting me:

There are no true paradoxes in my teachings of which I am aware.


One, is that you believe that the finite can exist without the infinite.

In the higher sense neither exist, but answer me this.

We live on one earth, a finite number. You must be saying that for this earth to exist there has to be an infinite number of earths exactly like this one with an infinite number of Deans and JJs? In other words, today's New York Times is exactly the same on an infinite number of earths? That's a pretty odd belief if that is what you are saying.


Another is you believe there is a world apart from the world of form. As if there is two seperate worlds. One outside time and space and one in time and space. I don't know the logic behind this.

This is actually explained quite well in the Kybalion. It tells us that all things in form are created from the imagination of the mind of God. This mind does not exist in time and space, but creates it and incarnates within it.

From the Kybalion:

The Teacher instructs the student to form a Mental Image of something, a person, an idea, something having a mental form, the favorite example being that of the author or dramatist forming an idea of his characters; or a painter or sculptor forming an image of an ideal that he wishes to express by his art. In each case, the student will find that while the image has its existence, and being, solely within his own mind, yet he, the student, author, dramatist, painter, or sculptor, is, in a sense, immanent in; remaining within; or abiding within, the mental image also. In other words, the entire virtue, life, spirit, of reality in the mental image is derived from the 'immanent mind" of the thinker. Consider this for a moment, until the idea is grasped.

To take a modern example, let us say that Othello, Iago, Hamlet, Lear, Richard III, existed merely in the mind of Shakespeare, at the time of their conception or creation. And yet, Shakespeare also existed within each of these characters, giving them their vitality, spirit, and action.


Also you say our evolution had no true beginning. While at the same time saying infinite does not exist. Infinite exists if there is an endless and unlimited potential available to expand from.

One may ask how could a formless world even exist? If there is no form there is nothing, right?

Not quite. The lowest of the formless worlds is a world of essential ideas. Consider the song "Yesterday" by the Beatles. Even before the formation of the Beatles, the essence of the song existed beyond time and space as an idea in the mind of God. As an essential idea it had no form. Then Lennon and McCartney tuned into this formless idea and brought it down into time and space and clothed it with vibration, vinyl and sheet music.

If every piece of form representing this song in this world were destroyed the essential idea would still exist in the formless worlds and take form again somewhere, sometime.

Look at your computer, a coffee cup, your watch... These are all ideas clothed in form. The idea behind each form (including your body) is eternal and exists in the higher worlds and is experienced by pure life energy, which resides there.

To tap into the formless worlds we must go beyond consciousness in time and space and identify with essential life energy which is one with all other lives in a world of ideas. Actually living there beyond time and space is beyond regular human consciousness. The best we can do is tap into these higher worlds and bring some inspired ideas from on high down to human consciousness.


Since you say we CAN expand and evolve with no limitations. If that was true then infinite must exist. Otherwise you have a limitation present.

Time and space have a beginning and end, but the source to which we return does not. It is neither infinite nor finite it just IS and is without limitation.

I used to use the word infinite in relation to God, but one day a stroke of light came and I realized this word describes something that does not exist in time and space and has no meaning outside time and space. The word "unlimited" is much closer to what I saw, but it is no big deal if you do not see as I see and want to use the word infinite. We will move forward just the same.

The song "Yesterday" is not infinite, but it is unlimited in how it can manifest. The same applies to God.


Just as there is no place where hot cold start there is no place where ignorance and intelligence start.

Why you deny the established undisputed scientific fact that cold starts at minus 459 degrees Fahrenheit is strange indeed. It makes your argument incomplete.


This is why you have problems. If you don't understand polarity.

I have no problems with polarity.

Dean quoting me:

But the Kybalion says God is unknowable, so how can you claim to know this and accept the book?


God is unknowable because god is infinite and infinite cannot be reached.

Duh. But you can't know that if God is unknowable.


It's obvious you can know some things. Even a child understands that something exists which you can define. Undefinable means not completely knowable in this context.

If God is unknowable and indefinable it means you cannot be sure of anything you think you know about God.

I, on the other hand, believe that God is knowable because THE ALL is in the ALL (me). Therefore according to my view there are some things we can know for sure. Logic tells us that according to your view you can know nothing for sure. Since you cannot know anything for sure about God you shouldn't be telling us what God is, except as a guess.


The other half of the truth is that there are also no hindrances.

You are missing the point of the teaching. From what I have read the Kybalion seems to be teaching the Middle Way similar to what I have written in the Lost Key of the Buddha.

I have already written a books worth of information on polarity and do not want to repeat myself arguing with you on it. I am only covering determinism now because we have not dealt with it in the past.


Looks like here you do not understand what cause and effect implies when you say chaos is predictable.

Chaos exists when a thing is in a situation of decay or collapse and is very predictable. Radioactive materials are in a state of decay or chaos and such decay is very predictable. What is not predictable is intelligence, such as a scientist who shoots some neutrons into the decaying matter and alters the decay.


You are wrong about this: Hot and cold is a polarity. And If hot and cold is not part of the same thing, then please explain how hot becomes cold and cold can also become hot.

Cold is when there is low vibration and hot is when there is high vibration of the molecules. Fast and slow are two different things. Ask any kid. Why are we talking about elementary grade school science? Let us move on.


Light and dark is another example of a polarity. Please explain how darkness can turn to light and light to darkness. Depending on degree.

Elementary Science. Look it up. What does this have to do with determinism? I do not want to go off on some other tangent here, especially one on which I have written extensively.


What I currently believe now is that both sides contain truth. But neither side is correct. it's fifty-fifty.

Hopefully you are seeing the Lost Key of the Buddha.

Dean quoting me:

Even though there is a reason for all mistakes, they are still mistakes.


Can it be possible that something is a mistake, and also not a mistake. Depending on how you look at it?

Most people see a mistake as an unplanned occurrence that hinders movement toward a goal. If your goal is to add 2+2 and you answer 5, then it is a mistake. Period.

To conclude otherwise one would have to come up with a different definition of what a mistake is.

Call on God, but row away from the rocks. Indian Proverb