2006-6-13 02:13:00
Dean writes:
"I want to try and explain my view best I can with what JJ just said."
Dean quoting JJ writes:
"While it is true that there are some things that are supposed to be, because they have already been decided, there are many things not decided in advance and happen just because you made them happen."
Dean the continues by writing:
"Something cannot both be decided and not decided at the same time."
JJ:
I never said this. Please argue with what I do say, not with what I do not say.
Dean:
"There can only be one decision. [with many decisions composed within it]"
JJ:
I don't think so. If God can only make one decision then he is very limited and not infinite as you say.
Dean:
"Anything else and you are denying a very important and established theory here which is That all is one."
JJ:
The general esoteric idea is one body, many parts.
Dean:
"So either the 1 decision [as a whole] of creation has been made. Or it has not been made."
JJ:
I agree that for this universe there was a decision to create it.
Dean:
"It must have been made. Because we are here. We could not exist if there was no decision that caused it."
JJ:
Agreed, but this does not limit God to one decision. He could have made many decisions to create many universes and many planes.
Dean:
"Infinite potential, which is god. Caused infinite potential. This does not mean something caused itself....look closer what infinite potential is."
JJ:
It really sounds like you are saying a cause caused itself which runs contrary to your writings.
Dean:
"Even though god is whole. God is also infinite."
JJ:
Sounds like a contradiction to me. An orange is whole, but there are other oranges.
Dean:
"Infinite cannot be reached though. So Whatever caused infinite potential. Cannot be reached as a first cause."
JJ:
So you have no hope ever in eternity of finding out if you are right. What's the sense of even thinking about it then?
Dean:
"It infinitely goes deeper and deeper. As above, so below."
JJ:
If infinity is below and above then you have two infinities. There can only be one infinite if such a thing were to exist.
Dean:
"Something cannot know exactly itself. but to exist the whole must be holigraphic. That is also how our memory works."
JJ:
What does this have to do with anything?
Dean:
"Conclusion is that even though a cause cannot cause itself. Infinite potential as a whole is able to exist through it's own endlessness."
JJ:
Why would something be able to exist through its own endlessness? What does that even mean?
Dean:
"There can only be one mystery of god."
JJ:
And you say this because?
Dean:
"And this is it. The creation of infinite potential of god in being."
JJ:
So God, the cause, made causes in itself.
Dean:
"1 truth, 1 decision, 1 being, 1 manifestation, 1 free will. 1 whole. 1 mystery."
JJ:
One Statement that can never be proven or demonstrated.
Dean again quoting JJ:
"But he does tell us that infinity has every detail that has ever happened or will ever happen in the universe all constructed and is here now. It is set and cannot be changed. Everything in infinity has already happened."
Dean:
"Not 'happened' but It is in 'being' It is 'happening' for eternity."
JJ:
You say that everything is happening at one instant, yet lasts for eternity. That is quite a trick. If we are the whole (as you say) then we ought to be able to see the whole and look at tomorrow's newspaper.
Dean:
"You may notice that you live a life that seems guided by a higher self. As if it was set up for you....and decided."
JJ:
Speak for yourself. That does not apply to me. Some aspects of karma have pushed me certain directions but all has been decided by me and no one has been able to predict many decisions until they arrived. Not even me.
Dean:
"Your higher self is what decides."
JJ:
My Self dwelling in this present consciousness decides. I know because I am experiencing it.
Dean:
"That is the real self that is gods will that is guiding you. It's the one in charge of everything. The ego only likes to think it is choosing in it's experience. It likes to think a lot of things that are not exactly accurate. That must be discarded if we want to evolve higher consiousness."
JJ:
According to your logic the higher self of some decide to be dark brothers and self destruct. That makes a lot of sense, doesn't it? Did the Jews also decide to be gassed in the Holocaust?
Dean:
"Higher consiousness tells us gods will as a whole rules the whole. And that we as a part of the one will co-operate with it."
JJ:
Doesn't tell me that. We are free to rebel against God's will. Good eventually dominates because intelligence gravitates to good more than evil.
Dean:
"We can do this consciously or unconsciously. According to our path."
JJ:
Our decisions are only made consciously.
Dean:
"Our individual ego must realize we are playing out gods will and recognize it. Not what we thought is our will that is separate."
JJ:
Progress is made when we realize when we are not in alignment with God's Will, and then make changes.
Dean:
"We exist together in will -- not seperate."
JJ:
We live in a reality where separation exists, even though we are parts of the one body. Some step out of the influence of the body for a time.
Dean:
"The ego tells you that you choose only by yourself as if you were in charge of the situation. And god was nothing to do with it."
JJ:
We are reflections of God and as reflections we make decisions by ourselves. This is the power that is in us.
Dean:
"But what god has willed is done."
JJ:
So God willed I stubbed my toe? Why would he waste his time willing such a silly thing?
God spends his time working on the big picture. He has the blueprint in the higher worlds, but in this one all is not manifested yet.
This is why Jesus said: "Let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven." He said this because the will of God has not yet manifested on earth as it is in the higher realms. All is not happening at once. The future is only a projection, missing many details.
Dean:
"So far what logically proves to be correct to us is that a cause cannot cause itself. nothing else has demonstrated otherwise."
JJ:
Decision is a cause. I decide to drink a glass of water at exactly three PM. Decision caused itself to manifest and to act.
Dean:
"You will never find exactly what creates reality. Only an infinite amount of data correlated to it's cause. That is making up the whole. Which appears to be in every part of that whole."
JJ:
We are reflections of God. One merely must ask himself how he creates reality.
Dean:
"There can be no first cause. Only infinite correlation and unity."
JJ:
I wouldn't call it First Cause, but Original cause which is Decision-Intelligence-Purpose.
Dean:
"We can rule out a causeless cause. Since such a thing cannot exist. it is an oxymoron to start with."
JJ:
If something is causeless, it's not a cause.
Next the option of a cause causing itself. Do you really think this is the only option you have left?
Why havn't you considered an infinite cause? Why is that wrong?
Then what caused infinite cause? Such a thing would have had to have caused itself.
Dean:
"An infinite cause, makes more sense then a cause causing itself."
JJ:
But infinite cause would have had to have caused itself.
Dean:
"Because infinite goes endlessly deeper into its manifestation.
"While 1 original cause does not explain how it can manifest itself. And such a thing I would rule out."
JJ:
Original cause manifested in time and space though illusion. There is only the appearance of cause and effect here, but that is enough to gain experience and seem like the real thing.
Dean:
"However an infinite cause. Can explain how it does it. Through an endlessness infinite construction of it's creation going deeper and deeper."
JJ:
God creates through his imagination just as we create through ours. Just as our imagination is unlimited so is his, but neither are infinite. There is always an end to what any being imagines, but no limit.
Dean:
"This infinite cause is really the only sensible option you have."
JJ:
If it makes sense to you then go for it. I realize that most people believe in infinity, but now that I have thought about it, it makes no sense to me. It cannot be demonstrated or experienced.
Dean:
"Why do you insist of upholding your illusion of how you see time existing, as separate past future etc."
JJ:
Experience.
Dean:
"How can past be any different to future?"
JJ:
In the present I am drinking a glass of water. In the future the water has been drunk.
But you say that future will at one point be the past and then in that past the water will be drunk.
But I say that when this point arrives, you then have two different points in the past. One where the glass was full and one where it was empty. These are always two different points separated in time.
Dean:
"Explain how present is different to past? And vice versa."
JJ:
As I explained, the true present has no form in it. The past does and the future is in the process of formation.
Dean:
"When does future stop and present begin?"
JJ:
When all creation is unfolded and no time, form and space exist.
Dean:
"When does past end, and future start?"
JJ:
Same answer.
Dean:
"What is the exact point where each end and begin for us. So we know that they are 3 separate things. If that is what you say they are."
JJ:
My explanation above is the correct technical answer. Here is the one you are looking for. You are walking on a path. You arrive at the step in front of you when you take the step. Your last step ends when you have taken the new one. A new second arrives when we move forward one second. Pretty simple. Too simple for minds that insist on mysteries.
Dean:
"Can you then deny past exists? And can you deny future exists?"
JJ:
A path exists behind and in front of me. I see a dog ahead of me sleeping on the path but by the time I get there the dog is gone. I would have predicted the dog would be there when I arrived, but I was fooled. The dog decided to move and changed the future journey on the path.
Dean:
"Time in fact must be created only by our consciousness. Not by something outside ourself."
JJ:
Then why do we all register time in the same way? Consciousness registers a sequence of events and this creates time as we perceive it. That movement of events (time) takes place whether we are here or not.
Dean:
"Time is made up of consciousness, just as everything is."
JJ:
Time is created by motion of form. Still all motion and there is no time or form.
Dean:
"And like all things. Can be controlled by consciousness. Because it is consciousness."
JJ:
Then control it and email me tomorrow's newspaper.
Dean:
"Where do I not make sense about this?"
JJ:
I've told you a number of times now.
Dean:
"Can you please explain what 1 second really is? You are trying to label time, as if it was something that could be measured with any accuracy."
JJ:
It is. A second is a measurement of a certain amount of motion of form. Look at the second hand of your clock. When it moves around once you have a minute. One sixtieth that amount is a second. You did go to grade school, did you not?
Dean:
"1 second can seem like an eternity. And what is the difference? space is also infinitely small. It cannot be infinitely measured though."
JJ:
However long it seems it is still the measurement of a certain amount of motion of form.
Dean:
"How then is time not infinitely relative to it's measurement?"
JJ:
Why is an inch not anything else but an inch?
Dean:
"Is it relevant how many seconds it takes for future to get here? What about how many seconds it takes for present to become past?"
JJ:
What does this have to do with anything?
Dean:
"You are trying to label the infinite."
JJ:
I do not even believe in infinity.
Dean:
"Try and point out the exact precise measurement of time."
JJ:
I just pointed out what a second was.
Dean:
"So we know what 1 unit is. What is the smallest amount of time we can have. Divide it properly so we can see what is the smallest measurement really is."
JJ:
What does this have to do with anything?
Dean:
"The smallest measurement is infinite, right?"
JJ:
No, because the infinite does not exist. It is only a theoretical point that you go toward.
Dean:
"You cannot give exact measurements because the infinite cannot be measured obviously."
JJ:
I can say within the passage of one minute there passed at least 59 exact seconds.
Dean:
"Your illusion of time falls apart right here."
JJ:
You keep saying this, but just stating it doesn't make it true.
Dean:
"But 1 second is not the smallest measurement possible. And understanding what time is. Is another thing altogether."
JJ:
Please argue with what I do say, not with what I do not say. I did not say one second is the smallest measurement of time. It is the amount of time that must pass in order for us to register an event in this reality.
Dean:
"What is true present?"
JJ:
I've already answered this. It is complete stillness.
Dean:
"You cannot even label what present is."
JJ:
I just did.
Dean:
"There is no dividing line between present, past, future. If there is, please point it out to me and watch it disappear and float away soon as you try to do this."
JJ:
Just like you can't see the exact center of a circle you can't see the present. You only see a quantum of time where the past has taken formation.
Dean:
"If it was possible for motion to be still. Then we would have to start at nothing. If we started at no motion. There still would be nothing in motion right now."
JJ:
To start with no form is not to start with nothing. The guitar string in motion gives the illusion of three or more strings. When it is stilled the illusionary strings are gone and the one remains. When motion producing form is stilled the one vibrating purpose remains. It is something.
Dean:
"Some motion has to start from some motion."
JJ:
It does not because motion is based on illusion.
Dean:
"Motion causes the motion, Add infinite. All motion that will be here. Holds everything together as a whole. And exists as being."
JJ:
What causes motion in your dreams? This is a reflection of what causes motion in this reality. The dreamer can cause all the motion he wants and yet remain still.
I haven't seen you explain how the universe sprang into motion.
Dean:
"Second original cause is just another word for first cause. What are you trying to do?"
It has a different meaning. If there is a first cause there has to be a second and there has to be a time when there was no cause.
JJ:
Original cause is merely that which originates, something entirely different. It has always been because it lies outside of time and space.
Dean:
"I really thought that we had agreed first cause cannot exist...."
JJ:
I agree it does not exist.
Dean:
"This cannot be how it works when there is unity and law involved. I can demonstrate this is not true."
JJ:
By ordering my car to drive down the street for me. When it does not do this. It's not because a cause can cause itself. It's because there are laws of nature you have to understand to live in this reality.
Why ignore those laws when understanding what is true and what cannot be true?
I have no idea what you are trying to prove here.
Within this Original cause is Decision, Intelligence and Purpose.
Dean:
"Please explain how it is possible. Or you cannot expect me to believe it."
JJ:
I do not know how it is possible, but I do know these three exist and create. All I can say is that intelligence that creates evolved through the eternities.
Dean:
"In fact your still yet to define for me what future is exactly."
JJ:
I didn't know you wanted to know.
The future is created by the changing of the form that belongs in the past.
What do you think it is?
Dean:
"You should remember that these terms have only been made for our daily living for simplicity. Just as the international date line does not really have tomorrow on one side."
JJ:
One has nothing to do with the other.
Dean:
"We know time cannot be measured. But for daily living. We measure it best we can. And we still run into problems."
JJ:
Speak for yourself. I measure it all the time and have no problem.
Dean:
"Changing it an hour back and adjusting it. Just so our lives can be organized properly."
JJ:
That does nothing to the motion of time.
Dean:
"You cannot get away from the fact intelligence is predictable when it is known."
JJ:
But it is never completely known. This is why I cannot even predict what I will do in all circumstances in the future let alone what you will do. What data could I possibly put in my computer to know how you would react to a naked saleslady?
Dean:
"This is demonstrated by the lesser lives. That we can predict. The more intelligence. The more difficult it is to understand and predict the free will it yields and how it does it. But it is still predictable to higher lives. Add infinite."
JJ:
And you believe this because...?
Remember the higher lives, the masters, tell us they cannot even predict what we mere mortals will do.
Dean:
"You can however predict a rock with more accuracy."
JJ:
But a rock cannot decide to move itself.
Dean:
"The illusion is that anything exists or can exist outside time and space. Anything ouside time/space is non-existence. Which is nothing."
JJ:
And you know this because...?
Dean:
"It's nice to have a magical cause, that can violate all your laws of nature in order for you to believe in some explanation."
JJ:
You mean like your infinite cause?
Dean:
"For example. What then makes purpose exist? Outside time space. What would cause it. What is outside time space that allows these things to be able to be present, other than itself."
JJ:
What makes your infinite exist?
Dean:
"The real answer I see is that consciousness is all that is. And that it cannot exist without time/space present in some form. As part of the whole."
JJ:
DK [Djwhal Khul] tells us there are states above what we call consciousness. I feel within my soul this is true. This is beyond our ability to prove.
Dean:
"It does not prove your first cause theory though."
JJ:
I do not have a first cause theory.
Dean:
"I don't see how you can believe in some magical original cause. please explain."
JJ:
Your concept is much more magical than mine. Explain yours first.
Dean:
"It is not chaotic."
JJ:
No one said it was chaotic.
Dean:
"The reason it cannot be predicted or measured is because it exists in the holographic infinite potential of what is."
JJ:
That is a non-reason if I ever heard one.
Dean:
"Higher consciousness can understand it better. But it can never fully be known 100% due to it's infinity."
JJ:
What you perceive with your consciousness is as good as you are going to get. Forget about some infinite consciousness that has the warped interest in deciding when you are going to squash your next ant and concentrate on where you are in the now and mold that great future ahead of you to your own satisfaction. If you wait around for God to do it you will be waiting forever in frustration.
"Speech is conveniently located midway between thought and action, where it often substitutes for both."
-- John Andrew Holmes
Copyright © 2006 by J.J. Dewey, All Rights Reserved