2006-6-11 06:48:00


I think that "I am becoming" is in fact the real beast that causes all the problems.

Name one problem it causes.

One of the troubles with your arguments is that they are generic and often all encompassing, lacking any specifics.


When you take a look at the evidence. Everything supports my view on this. But there is no evidence for "becoming".

Again, nothing specific. Just an all encompassing generic statement.


Why think about constantly how you are yet to "become" ignoring the fact that god to even exist must be complete as a unity. And that only recognition is possible.

Another ephemeral statement. What do you mean by complete? I suppose everything that is in God is in God - that is pretty obvious and one way of looking at complete.

To say that to exist God is complete because he has nowhere to go or nowhere to expand makes no sense because we see that the universe is expanding and that none of his creations in the macrocosm are complete.


The evidence against "becoming" is that something cannot come form nothing.

To say a thing is evidence is not evidence at all. Where is this evidence?


How you guys can deny this is a mystery to me.

No one has denied this. Most here believe that something cannot come from nothing, including myself.


The saying "To be or not to be" is relevant here.

"To be" means "to be in being." As yourself. And to constantly be expanding your understanding of yourself, though infinity.

But this is not what you believe. You believe the future is already here so expanding any understanding would be impossible.


However, "to not be." Is to live under the illusion you are "becoming" when you clearly exist and everything is here.

In order to become, one first must be, or become alive. Becoming only increases the sense of being alive.


Even in the bible says there is really no new thing under the sun. And that you cannot take way or add anything to god.

This could mean a number of different things or the author could have been wrong. The universe is God's one body, yes, but it changes form consistently. Changing form could be defined as adding to, from one point of view, or not from another.


This teaching of "I am becoming" is backwards.

The understanding of being makes a lot more sense because it implies knowing yourself and expanding your recognition of the infinite creation that has always been here for eternity.

"Expanding," as you say, implies becoming, not being.


Rather than believing in that which is yet to exist or manifest. Why not simply recognize what it already here? You can then begin to recognize the infinite for eternity.

Most do recognize what is already here.


But if you are to "become". If you are yet to be. That is a disturbing illusion.

Where do you get such an idea?

You have to be before you can become. You do not become so you can be.

If you are in a state of being only, you are enjoying a temporary rest. When you are becoming your life is in a state of being with the added aspect of becoming.


I say that nothing can be unpredictable because of universal law. You havn't challenged it.

I have challenged it about a dozen times. Have you been reading my posts?

Here is a strong piece of evidence. Not one person of 6 billion has been able to give a detailed account of even one day in advance, let alone a thousand years. This gives proof with about 99.999 percent surety that the future is not set.

Where is your piece of evidence equal to this?


In reality there can be only one form. Of course it appears to be different forms. because it's potential to be is infinite.

Please explain how a circle, a square and a triangle are the same form.


I have tried to make it as simple as possible here to present my evidence. I challenge anyone who thinks this is wrong to point out any flaws in this argument. Else it stands true.

That's like saying there are three eyed monsters on Sirius. If you can't prove this wrong it stands true.

It's not very likely that there are three headed monsters on Sirius, but I can't prove they are not there.

The fact that I cannot concretely prove they are not there does not mean they are there.

You are the one who needs to show the evidence that you are correct.

There are a number of flaws in your arguments. Here are a few more:

  1. The big one is that predeterminism is not supported by experience, observation or the reality in which we live.
  2. You say "Infinity caused all that is to exist." Infinity is a no thing, a theoretical number not proven to even exist. You are saying then that nothing caused something to exist. This goes contrary to common sense and your other statements.
  3. You say that a cause cannot cause itself. So how can a cause (infinity) cause itself to be created.
  4. You say, "Determinism is no threat to free will." If a thing is predetermined it means that there is no free will involved, no real choice is available. To think that all events and decisions in the universe can be predicted when scientists cannot even predict the path of a rat through a maze is an amazing thought.
  5. You say, "All that is, is all that can ever exist." You give no reason why this is true.

Evidence to the contrary is that the universe is in a constant state of change which produces form that was not there before.

  1. You say, "Self contains all that is..." Correction: Self contains only limited experience in any particular form. You cannot prove otherwise.
  2. Dean: "...thus self is complete, and all that is."

The self is a part of a greater whole, but not the whole. As to whether the self is complete we have to define what complete is. Some selves are complete idiots.

  1. Other flaws can be found in these statements from you:

    Question: Why can I not exercise infinite potential right now?

    Answer: You do not know yourself.

    Question: Why do I not know myself?

    Answer: You have chosen not to know yourself.

    Question: Why Have I chosen not to know myself?

    Answer: I am still thinking about the answer to this but perhaps because there would be nothing else to do?

    You know that you really want to exercise infinite potential now. You have expressed this several times on the list. Obviously, you have not chosen to refuse infinite potential and even if you had you would reverse it now. Because you want to express infinite potential and cannot, shows a flaw here.

    Hopefully you are about ready to wrap this up. I know I am.

    The future is much like the present, only longer.
    Dan Quisenberry