2006-6-10 05:55:00
Dean writes:
"I guess the last resort is go to the supposed expert on the subject that seems to support your view. And just hope it is correct and that it has enough weight to stand on it's on."
JJ:
This belief of yours goes against what you do for you have gone to the most acknowledged expert on God and used it -- the Bible itself.
You quote:
"Everything that happens in this world, happens at the time god chooses. He sets the time for birth, and the time for death. Time for planting, and time for pulling out, the time for killing and the time for healing, the time for tearing down, and the time for building." (Ecclesiastes 3:1-3)
You quote from the Bible:
"He has set the time right for everything. He has givin us a desire to know the future. but never gives us the satisfaction of fully understanding what he does."
JJ:
The first problem here is you have used a quite distorted translation. I don't know what version you are using, but it is obviously made to be easy reading and not for accuracy. The King James [KJV], which has its faults, is much more accurate.
KJV says:
"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up." (Ecclesiastes 3:1)
There are two words here that help us understand what Solomon is saying which are "season" and "time." Season comes from the Hebrew ZeMAN.
Time comes from: ETH.
ZeMAN is usually translated as "season" implying a cyclic occurrence and ETH is almost always translated as "time" implying an event within time but not necessarily within a cycle, as with a season.
"To every purpose" comes from CHEPHETS and has little to do with purpose. It implies a pleasurable desire or activity--or that which is important to us. The verse is basically saying that there are cycles and times within which all that we consider important occurs.
Then he goes on to tell us that there is a right time and a place for everything of importance in the lives of men to occur.
I've quoted this scripture many times, as it supports my teachings that there is an exception to every rule and a time to act contrary to the norm.
The translation you quote adds in words that are not in the Hebrew such as "happens at the time god chooses," "he sets," and "he has set...." Obviously the translator believed in predestination as you do, and this caused his biased translating.
This is evident in this verse you quoted:
"He has set the time right for everything. He has given us a desire to know the future, but never gives us the satisfaction of fully understanding what he does."
Let us go through this and come as close as we can to the true meaning.
"He has set the time right for everything."
This is way off. The old King James is much closer: "He hath made everything beautiful in his time."
From Dean's Bible:
"He has given us a desire to know the future, but never gives us the satisfaction of fully understanding what he does."
The King James version reads:
"He hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end."
Neither one of these is that accurate as a key word is mistranslated in both of them. The Hebrew OWLAM is translated "future" in Dean's quote and "world" in the King James. It is most often rendered as "everlasting" and implies, not so much eternity, as a long period of time or perpetual.
So what is this verse really saying?
Here is how I would translate it:
"He has given man a sense of his immortality in his heart, but even so he cannot discover the beginning or end of God's works."
Next, Dean writes:
And finally perhaps the most important line in the Bible here in regards to my argument....
"Whatever happens or can happen has already happened before. God makes the same thing happen again and again." (Verse 15)
JJ:
This scripture merely elucidates the general principle of cycles as used in the modern truism, "history repeats itself."
I'm surprised you did not quote this one:
"The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun." (Ecclesiastes 1:9)
Each scripture must be examined in its context as well as in relation to other scriptures and, most of all, with the spirit within through the soul for no written word is infallible.
For instance, other scriptures talk of new things under the sun:
Indeed there are cycles where history repeats itself and then there are "new" things which are not an exact repeat.
Thank God for this knowledge for I can think of nothing more depressing than just doing the same thing over and over for eternity, or, even worse, living in an instant now where everything is happening at once. This brings to mind a cacophony of hearing all the horns in town going off at one time. Not a pleasant thought.
After Dean uses the authority of the Bible, I then quoted an earned authority of my own. To this he responded:
"Notice how you try and use the beast to strengthen your argument here."
JJ:
I do not know what concept of the Beast is in your mind here, but it has nothing to do with what I have taught or we have discussed on this list. I certainly used the Beast no more than you did with your quotes.
Using a quote from an earned or established authority to prove a point has nothing to do with the Beast. To be a victim of the Beast one must unquestionably follow an authority who takes the place of the inner authority of the God within.
Dean:
"Why can't you see or admit the flaw? If you cannot refute it. Then at least acknowledge what I am saying as a valid possibility.
"If not. Then you are just as stubborn as any other teacher I have met. Who use their beliefs to refute evidence. Including Christopher."
JJ:
Is it stubborn to maintain the sky is blue just because you say it is green? Why should I think otherwise when not one shred of proof is given to the contrary? I can see that it is blue, so until I see evidence to the contrary I will maintain the sky is blue.
I can see the future where the earth no longer exists is not here as you would maintain. Tomorrow is not even here yet. Just like I can see the sky is blue I can also see I am in the present and cannot read tomorrow's newspaper today. But if someone could e-mail me the front page tomorrow's New York Times I may reconsider.
Perhaps another earned authority will help here, our old friend DK [Djwhal Khul]:
"It is wise for human beings to realise that mankind is free. Even the Hierarchy Itself does not know which forces-those of good or those of evil-will ultimately prevail because even if the forces of good triumph where the war is concerned, will they triumph where the peace is concerned? Good must ultimately triumph but the Hierarchy does not know what the immediate future holds for humanity because men determine their own destiny.
"I have now definitely decided to disband the New Seed Group. My experiment in reorganising the earlier groups into one large group has not succeeded. I have told you frequently that the Hierarchy itself does not know what decisions humanity will make in world affairs, or if mankind will profit from proffered opportunity. Equally so, the Master of an Ashram does not know what "disciples on the periphery" of an Ashram will do, because their training and testing is only in process."
("Discipleship in the New Age," Vol 1, page 74, by Alice A. Bailey)
JJ:
You are doing a good job of attempting to prove the impossible. I don't know if I could do any better. Fortunately for me I am attempting to prove the obvious which is much easier. The only problem with a truth that is obvious is that many are not content to have the truth be obvious and think to themselves that something more complicated must be the real truth.
While it is true that there are complexities to time and space (of which I have written much) we must not ignore the reality which is right in front of us.
Again, as DK says:
"It is wise for human beings to realise that mankind is free.... The Hierarchy does not know what the immediate future holds for humanity because men determine their own destiny."
"It pays to be obvious, especially if you have a reputation for subtlety."
-- Isaac Asimov (1920 - 1992)
Copyright © 2006 by J.J. Dewey, All Rights Reserved