The Foundation of Cause

2006-6-7 06:11:00

Dean writes:

"I have tried to make it as simple as possible here to present my evidence. I challenge anyone who thinks this is wrong to point out any flaws in this argument. Else it stands true."

JJ:

I thought I had done this about a dozen times now.

For one thing there is absolutely no proof, not one shred, that the details of the future can be known today. If the future is happening now and all is set in stone this would be a piece of cake.

  

Dean:

"Part 1, Premise 1: A cause cannot cause itself."

JJ:

No one has said anything differently, but a cause can change direction because the foundation of all cause is Decision. Decision can only exist when the future is not set.

  

Dean:

"Premise 2: Everything that is caused exists and everything that is uncaused cannot exist."

JJ:

Correct.

  

Dean:

"Premise 3: Something cannot come from nothing."

JJ:

Correct.

  

Dean:

"Thus everything that exists is here."

JJ:

Everything that exists in the present is here. The future is not here and all the causes of the future have not yet manifest.

  

Dean:

"Part 2, Premise 1: Everything that manifests is caused."

JJ:

True.

  

Dean:

"Part 2, Premise 2: Therefore (see Part 1) Everything that manifests already exists."

JJ:

This is a big leap in conclusion and incorrect. Where is your logic behind such a conclusion?

  

Dean:

"Part 2, Premise 3: All creations exist."

JJ:

All present creations exist.

  

Dean:

"Thus there is nothing new under the sun."

JJ:

You'd better hope there are new things under the sun or you will eventually be bored out of existence and be sucked into that great void of nothingness that some have spoken of.

  

Dean:

"Part 3, Premise 1: Tomorrow will be here tomorrow."

JJ:

Can't argue with this.

  

Dean:

"Part 3, Premise 2: When tomorrow manifests it will exist as today."

JJ:

Yep.

  

Dean:

"Part 3, Premise 3: What is future exists as present."

JJ:

Another great leap here. Where is your evidence and logic?

This is like the green cheese idea I presented.

  

Dean:

"Thus future exists."

JJ:

The future exists, but its form is not complete. The past exists and its form is complete.

  

Dean:

"Part 4, Premise 1: Everything that exists is determined by law (cause and effect)."

JJ:

Cause is initiated and directed by intelligence and purpose through the power of Decision, which is the core of what we are. Decision, which has no cause but is cause and eternal, originates cause that creates. Decision originates new cause.

  

Dean:

"Part 4, Premise 2: Future exists. Premise 3: Future is determined."

JJ:

Because the future exists does not mean that it is set. Only the spirit of the future exists. Its body is created through cause initiated by decision. Because decision initiates cause and decision is malleable this tells us that the future is not set.

  

Dean:

"Thus future is determined and exists here."

JJ:

Reality proves this wrong. If the future exists here we could see it feel it and read tomorrow's paper today.

  

Dean:

"I also did an Internet search and found the following material that may be helpful to explain the argument that free will co-exists with determinism."

JJ:

Sorry. I saw no light in that article.

You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. When you know you are Decision then you know you have power over your own future. But if you see that Decision can not mold the future then there is no freedom.

  

Dean:

"Meanwhile as you can see from my argument. Everything has been decided. From the moment god existed."

JJ:

Thank God this is not true! If it were we all might as well self-destruct and enter the great void of the nothingness philosophy.

  

Quoting JJ, Woody writes:

"Existence cannot be without creation."

Woody then goes on to write:

"Not so sure about this assertion. I have an idea about 'what makes something eternal is that it has no prime cause' or, in other words, eternal things are eternal because if you look at something eternal, you will always find a cause behind it, and a cause behind that cause, ad infinitum. For me, 'creation' implies a reorganization of what already is, and therefore 'existence' of the organized materials is even more fundamental than the creation of a form with the eternal materials."

JJ:

Good point. My statement did not appropriately clothe my thought. Let me rephrase it.

Existence in changeable form cannot be without creation.

  

"When you're through changing, you're through."
  -- Bruce Barton