Solving Problems

2003-2-6 23:38:00

Larry quoting JJ from a previous message writes:

"Any effect on the temperature of the ocean would be negligible."

Larry then writes:

"That was not my point. The difference in temperature between the ocean and the pykrete will induce a heat flow from the ocean to the pykrete. Water is a very efficient conductor of heat (much, much more efficient that dry air). The ocean holds an enormous amount of heat energy.

"Pykrete wouldn't conduct heat as much as water. The fact that it took the prototype most of a summer to melt (with no refrigeration) illustrates the heat flow was not that great.

"Think of this analogy. Look at Holland with its dikes to keep the water out. In essence you need a 'heat dike' to keep the ocean's heat out. But no matter what the 'pressure' of the North Sea exerts a continuous and inexorable threat to Holland. The ocean will exert a similar 'pressure' on anything at a lower heat energy state.

"It seems to me that an engineering method should be sought that does not fight against the forces of nature, but rather works with them."

JJ:

Anything you build goes against the forces of nature to some degree. The overall picture must be examined. Ingredients are cost efficiency, availability of materials, maximum self sufficiency, final usability, effect on environment and a number of other items. There may be a drawback in one area and a big plus in another.

  

Larry quoting JJ writes:

"Now it is possible that we may find much better materials than Pykrete, but from what I have learned about it, it sounds like we should not dismiss its potential but look into it and eventually do experiments with it and other combinations and see how it can be best applied."

Larry then writes:

"I think this will be a job for engineers - people who can accurately describe this with mathematical equations. A idea can seem easily plausible to the layman (I include myself in that - I am a computer scientist, not a mechanical engineer), but in fact not be practical."

JJ:

I would say that engineering theory is a middle step. Before we try anything new the major step is to experiment with prototypes and see with our own eyes the benefits and drawbacks.

The greatest minds in the world came up with all kinds of theories as to what we would find on Titan. They got some things right, but there were also major surprises.

If some of you are thinking I am just going to authoritatively decree that some building material is IT and then proceed blindly on faith that it will work you do not understand how I think or work.

I suspect that when the time comes we will have the materials narrowed down to 3-4 possibilities. It will take a significant financial investment just to investigate the worthiness of each and we will have to have thousands of interested investigators and supporters to have the power arrive at solid ingredients of the plan. We may even wind up building several mini communities at sea to test several different methods - before the major gathering takes place. Then even after the gathering begins there would be no rule saying that one community cannot use different building materials than another community.

In addition after we find suitable materials we will continue to do research on improved materials. I suspect, for instance, that future technology will allow us to make minor additions or changes to water that will create building blocks that require no refrigeration. This would be an avenue of investigation that supportive scientists will pursue.

I believe in the Edison approach to creation. He did not ask his engineers and scientists if a thing could be done but told them what he wanted done and told them to figure out how to build it.

  

Quoting JJ again, Larry writes:

"I can see the possibility of building an underwater city with this material."

Larry then continues with:

"Let's see if I got this right. Build an underwater city out of material that is naturally buoyant (wants to float) and has to be refrigerated so as not to melt?"

JJ:

The buoyancy can be successfully dealt with in numerous different ways and in some cases would not even be a problem. For instance, it could be used as is in shallow waters to create a giant circular wall to hold back the waters and create a new land in the center. The walls could be anchored to the ocean floor in a number of different ways. Sealing it on frozen ground may be sufficient. If not then a concrete anchor could work.

If the building blocks need to be heavier than water all one need to is to add a weight to each block.

I suspect that Pykrete is a foreshadowing of future building materials that can be created from water without the use of large amounts of wood pulp. Ren's idea of using a living organism to accomplish this is worthy of investigation.

There is a solution to every problem.

By the way, I majored in mechanical engineering for a while, but couldn't handle the tediousness of mechanical drawing. If they had computers back then I may have been an engineer today. Instead, I made a quantum leap and switched over to a major in political science with a minor in journalism.

  

The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion."
  -- Thomas Paine (1737 - 1809)