Abortion Comments

2005-12-17 08:41:00

Alan:

I disagree with JJ on two points of his analysis of Republican views on abortion... 1. There have not been logical arguments been put forward 2. The Bible is the only source of revelation In both these cases, Catholic scholars going back as AD 100 have come out with logical arguments against abortion.

Actually neither the Catholic or Protestant churches believe there is any revelation outside of the Bible. Scholars interpret the Bible but do not give new revelation.

Alan:

So here is my rational/logical argument for being against abortion - based on my past readings of Church scholars.

I don't see much disagreement with your other points. I'll elaborate some more in my response to Larry.

Larry:

The logic should be obvious. If a fetus has brain waves, feels pain, and exhibits purposeful physical activity then there is scientific cause to say that the fetus is a human being. Obviously a fetus will eventually become a human being. The question is when the fetus has become a human being. The argument then is over when to call the fetus a human being.

Yes, this is the argument. I am writing to a standard audience so I do not give my full views on this which is the soul links with the embryo at conception, but it is a very loose link, just enough to guide the building of the body. Partial consciousness then goes into the body at birth, but a full soul body connection is not made until around the age of 7 or 8 years.

The argument you mention above concerns the creation of the vehicle but doesn't prove what's in the vehicle or when it gets there. Without esoteric knowledge a person can only guess.

Larry quoting me:

"Most conservatives still believe abortion is murder any time it is done after conception ..."

I do not believe that is true. I believe that many conservatives would accept a compromise that allowed earlier abortions (when the fetus least resembles a human being) but which placed restrictions on late term abortions (when the fetus much more closely resembles what most believe to be a human being).

By far the majority of pro-life people I have met or read of are very anti-abortion from the time of conception.

Larry:

I think your "black and white" caricature is highly inaccurate in the present day. In fact many liberal Catholics believe that abortion is murder.

I've been writing about Republicans and Democrats not Catholics. I am not speaking in black and white terms but the general inclination of both parties. There are always exceptions. Some Republicans are pro choice and a handful of Democrats are pro life.

Larry:

They use this human development as evidence that a real human being is going to be born, ...

Well, that is a logical argument. It is not a "feeling" argument which disproves your initial claim.

It is an argument that a body is being created but not that a spirit is in the body.

Larry:

... but even the most hardened abortionist > does not dispute that >and does not argue with it.

That is true, they do not dispute it. They IGNORE it. :)

Yes, they do.

Larry

That is the critical point, and that is why you are wrong.

I don't see why it shows I am wrong. About what?

Larry:

It is fairly simple. The liberal side of the abortion argument focuses on one fact and one fact only. They focus on a woman's _right_ to control her own body. From their point of view that "trumps" all other issues and whether or not the fetus is in fact a real human being is irrelevant in their view.

Correct. I haven't covered the liberal fallacies on this yet.

Larry:

The liberal strongly _feels_ that it is important that the woman have absolute control of her body even if that results in the death of a human being. They feel this conviction so strongly that no amount of argumentation can impinge on their belief.

I think both sides are stubborn, but eventually progress will be made toward the truth.

Larry:

Yes, some conservatives may feel that life is God-given, but their arguments are more logical on the whole.

At least they have an argument.

Larry:

They argue often from biology as to how a fetus resembles a human being. They argue as to when a fetus starts demonstrating these things. The liberal simply rejects it all out of their _feeling_ that their issue of a woman's control of her own body regardless of any other fact trumps any argument.

But their argument is about the creation of the vehicle, which has nothing to do with whether a life is in the vehicle. It is like talking about the creation of a car without knowing when the driver gets inside.

Larry:

So, overall I think the liberals still clearly are on the female side of this argument.

This is definitely true and they are probably more female on this issue, but most pro life people also argue from the feeling side.

I see problems with both sides of the argument and hope to guide toward the truth in the middle when the chapter is done.

We are continually faced with a series of great opportunities brilliantly disguised as insoluble problems.  John W. Gardner (1912 - )