2005-11-21 12:22:00
Johan:
Sorry to scare you Larry but I was not thinking of any of those definitions where the "state" has control. Where the state controls then "forced socialism" exists and the freedom to develop any social program that works and is efficient disappears.
This is also the general view and politics in Europe. So, what is the problem?
The view of libertarians is that all socialism in the world is forced. There is not a safe place to go where a group can experiment with their social ideas without being forced to give a large chunk of their paycheck to forced social programs.
If overhead can be reduced from 60 cents on the dollar to 10 cents or less, and maximum freedom maintained, then some social programs can become quite attractive.
Johan: Decreasing the overhead at the cost of what? To even negate the environment? JJ, not all is for sale.
If the State had more money through being efficient then it would have more for other needs - not less. Learning to be efficient helps, not hinders, the environment.
Johan:
You see lawrence, This is the problem, or perhaps we may say these are but overexaggerated convictions of JJ. Just an image of the EU from hearsay, and that's it. Perhaps he did not visit Europe after all. It is quite simple. None of these definitions you mentioned apply to any EU country. Let alone "forced' socialism. Just hogwash.
I spent two years in England among the people. The English were insulted if you considered them a part of Europe, by the way.
They had forced socialism, just as Holland does. How you can deny something that is even acknowledged by your own government is strange indeed.
Johan:
Perhaps it is good to introduce you all a few aspects of the EU. Just because the EU is a mixture of countries with a long tradition for centuries in self-government, it is not possible to force any socialism in any country in the EU. It never was, although there were a few parties who had some very idealistic views in the sixties and seventies.
All in the EU is free, democratic and in staggering surprise we had to accept that the US required over sudden visa's to enter the US with far too many civil details which were infringing the civil rights of Europeans. Our Bill of Rights did not accept this infringement.
Did you read my posts? You are arguing against what has not been said. No one said that the countries of EU do not have democratic elections. I was referring to the country you are living in, Holland I believe, as having forced socialism. That is, your government forces wage earners to pay taxes and then uses that money for social programs often against their will. All the countries of the EU do this to a degree, but the average tax in the Netherlands is much higher than the U.S. and forces even a larger percentage to socialism than we do.
I understand, for instance, the doctors there are paid by the state and this money is taken by force of law by the state. All are required to be insured whether they want to participate or not and pay for this program through taxation and fees whether they want to or not - unless they are near the poverty level.
Do you really deny this is so???
Do you really think your socialism is not forced? Do you really think you could cease paying taxes, cease being insured and put your money in a place you think best?
I don't think so.
Johan:
However, in one way it seems that Europeans are more concerned about environmental issues and do not accept American meat fully saturated with hormones and more of these things that were being exported to the whole world. Things changed. Logic.
Is all your meat there hormone free? Maybe we have found something to agree on as I buy hormone free meat - grass fed as much as possible.
If you are indeed health conscious you must be outraged at the EU wanting to make it illegal to buy vitamins and herbs without a doctor's prescription.
Johan:
If this kind of freedom is being supported by any fanatic freedom lover to allow distribution of poisoned meat to all parts of the world, then I think that Brussels is right to stop this.
Don't you have the right there to not buy the meat without hormones? We do. Because of this freedom organic products are starting to become big business here. When people are educated correctly they will choose well without being forced.
Johan:
And this is not the end. Bush is still resisting fundamental environmental improvements through a lobbying industry. So, here is the clash: so called "forced socialism" versus the want for 100% freedom to do what one wants to do.
I could write a treatise proving that Bush has taken more steps to clean up the environment than Clinton did, yet I don't see you criticizing Clinton. Instead, you pick on Bush because you are brainwashed by your media.
But your are switching subjects on me. We are talking about forced socialism, not the environment. Let us stay away from the shotgun approach or nothing will get covered appropriately.
Johan:
I am sorry, but the world is not a schoolyard anymore. With freedom comes responsibilities.
Let me get this straight. It is all right to force socialism on people because they should be responsible. Would it be all right then for Jehovah Witnesses to force you to go to church because they think you need to be religious? Such is your strange reasoning.
Johan:
And certainly when one would like to become spiritual. Then one MUST see the interconnectedness between people and all of life. It is the very first requirement to see beyond, which is to love people.
What does this argument have to do with loving people? I'm sure libertarians love others just as much as those who believe in forced socialism.
The top twenty-five states in the United states who give the most to charities, per dollar earned, voted for Bush in 2000 and the top seven stingiest states voted for Gore. This tells us that the biggest believers in forced socialism here are happy to assist with other people's money, but not their own.
In the forms filled out during the 2000 election it revealed that Bush gave about 14% of his income to charities whereas the more socialistic Gore gave a paltry $200.
Johan:
Answer this question. Is or is not socialism forced upon the people of Europe? If you say it is not then tell me where I can go and live my life without being forced to pay for wasteful programs imposed upon me.
I have explained sufficiently in my comments to lawrence that there is no forced socialism in europe. It simply cannot be due to the constellation of all those mixed countries together.
You are in an amazing degree of denial.
This is a fact. In the country where you live, taxes are taken out of your paycheck by force and spent on social programs whether you agree to it or not. If this isn't forced socialism I don't know what is.
This is the case not only in Holland but in all the nations of Europe as well as the United States to a lesser degree.
I don't think anyone else on the list is so deluded as to argue this point.
Like I say, if you didn't have forced socialism then thousands of libertarians from the United States would immigrate there tomorrow.
Johan:
Do not tell France or Scandinavia or Great Britain or Denmark or Holland that they have forced socialism.
You want me to lie to them? Of course they have forced socialism. They are forced to pay for social programs whether they be good or bad.
You might as well withdraw again. You're not winning this argument.
Johan:
They have a rather long tradition in democracy and freedom. But there has always been a great tendency to share with each other and to decrease the amount of the poor and junks, to educate them and to bring back -voluntarily- the excessive incomes/salaries of the board of directors and management, which are typical in the US.
To force one to pay is not sharing. Sharing is something that is voluntary. If a thief steals from me and gives to his friends then I suppose you think it is me who is sharing my goods with his friends. I don't think so. Neither will his friends appreciate me as the giver, but will thank the thief who did nothing to earn the goods.
Johan:
This is as we say, a kind of taking care for your neighbour, JJ. Exactly like christianity tells us.
This is NOT what Christianity teaches. Jesus never said: "Give to Caesar so Caesar can give to whomever he will."
He said to give directly to those in need, not to the state. Even Jesus had to be forced to pay taxes. When a tax collector accosted Peter about Jesus not paying taxes Jesus decided to pay to avoid "offending" the authorities. (Matt 17:27) He did not volunteer to give money to the tax collectors so they could give it away. Instead, he gave directly to those in need. He did not need an intermediary, as you seem to.
Johan:
Not to TAKE and grasping as much money as can be in all liberty as many egotists would like to do, but to share and to give.
Why do you think that those who believe in liberty just want more money for selfish reasons? I think I can do more good for others with my money than the State can. This is the thinking of many freedom loving people.
Johan:
Japan has the same climate in their overall policy. Do you think this is forced socialism?
Yes, I do. They force their people to pay for social programs also. Almost all governments do.
Johan:
Perhaps this sharing and giving, is what's bothering you?
Forced taxation and forced socialism is not sharing. Paying protection money to a mob, for instance, is not sharing.
Johan:
I mean exactly what I say. Europe is very socialistic and imposes it upon people whether they want to participate or not.
JJ, what the hell are you trying to force me your opinion, which is blind to the Truth and the facts in Europe? Yes, you are trying to force upon me and the whole class here of your exaggerated conviction, which I have already refuted several times.
And you refuted it when and with what words????
The whole class knows that you have to pay taxes in Holland to support social programs whether you believe in them or not. Why you do not know this simple fact is a mystery, especially since you live there. Maybe you do not work and live off the state and just think all you need comes out of the ethers.
Johan:
But you are coming back and back. I pay my taxes, just as you have to pay yours, I suppose.
So then you must work. Let us see if you can refuse to pay a tax. I think if you do this you will find there is forced socialism there.
Johan:
Do I blame you or your government that they force you in something?
Johan:
Yes. You are blaming my government and my president for forcing all kinds of things - much of it unjustly.
Johan:
Is this the kind of conversation in your local cafe in town? Sigh......
Yes.
Johan:
Are you denying this? Please answer. Then please tell me where I can go and not be forced to participate.
JJ, you are absolutely free to go wherever you want to go and even to settle yourself anywhere in the EU. As long as you have an income from the US, you will never be forced to participate in any tax program.
Wrong. I am still forced to pay U.S. taxes to support forced socialism in America and if I immigrated I would be forced to pay there.
Johan:
With freedom comes responsibility. If this cannot be seen and understood, than humanity can forget any spiritual freedom to be granted by the Hierarchy, and neither will be given any spiritual power. First one must see the whole of humanity as a Family. This is a lack in your reasoning.
But they can't be responsible for sharing that which is taken from them by force and shared who knows how?
People are basically good, not evil, and we cannot even see how responsible they are with freedom if they do not have it.
If people are free to donate and participate in social programs of their own choosing the majority will choose responsibly.
The intermediate stage between socialism and capitalism is alcoholism. Norman Brenner
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