Being Civil 2.1

2005-9-23 02:59:00

My question to Johan:

Since you believe and incessantly preach to us to empty our minds and not use them, then why do you on a daily basis use the lower mind to try to convince us to not use mind? You also use mind to convince us of other things. Why do you not practice what you preach???

Johan replies:

You want me to keep my mouth shut? How lovely.

No one is asking you to keep your mouth shut. You had to make a strongly mentally oriented ego attempt at distortion to come up with that misconception.

My obvious point was that if you followed your own philosophy you would not use your mind in communication. If you do not use mind or brain in communication then I would be interested in seeing what comes out.

Johan:

Has anyone here ever asked why I am preaching this? No, for it was rather uncomfortable for the ego I presume.

I do not think you have come close to making anyone's ego feel uncomfortable. You've said nothing to disturb anyone's belief system that I know of.

Johan:

Nobody seemed to be interested. But I tell you, I do practice what I preach. My mind is not speaking but my heart speaks and only uses the instrument of the lower mind to express itself.

What a way to get out of answering my question! Let me get this straight. When you use the mind, logic and reasoning it is OK because your mind stuff originates from the heart. But when Larry, Blayne, Ruth and others on this list speak they are evil because they do not speak from the heart but only use evil mind.

Let me clue you in. You are speaking from the mind just as much as any of the rest of us are in these exchanges.

Now I ask you again:

Since you believe and incessantly preach to us to empty our minds and not use them, then why do you on a daily basis use the lower mind to try to convince us to not use mind?

Another question to Johan:

You criticize me for having rules on this list which prevent anarchy. Do you really believe that there is more freedom in a system of anarchy where a few are free rather than a system of just rules where the majority enjoy enhanced freedom? If you do not believe this then why do you desire anarchy for our group???

Johan replies:

Do you consider freedom of speech and freedom of thought to be anarchy?

Another non answer.

I'll be gracious enough to plainly answer your question and I expect you to answer mine in return.

First we all have freedom of thought for thought cannot be censored. Thought does not produce anarchy and lawlessness, action does. A person may think of stealing from you, but if he is discouraged because of law then that freedom of thought caused no anarchy.

Freedom of action and speech for the few must be restricted by law to insure the greatest possible freedom of speech and action for the many.

Maximum freedom of speech does not allow a student in Algebra class to stand up uninvited and shout out a lesson in Spanish. In doing so he is taking away from maximum freedom of the whole.

Freedom of speech does not allow a person in a movie theater to rise up in the middle of the movie and tell the audience why he hates Bush.

Freedom of speech does not allow you to come into my house and force me to listen to you reading the dictionary.

Maximum freedom only comes through a just application of law.

In answer to your question I will say this. Freedom of thought does not produce anarchy, but completely unrestrained freedom of speech certainly can.

Now will you be so kind as to answer my question. Let me repeat:

Do you really believe that there is more freedom in a system of anarchy where a few are free rather than a system of just rules where the majority enjoy enhanced freedom? If you do not believe this then why do you desire anarchy for our group???

In other words do you believe in an unrestrained freedom of speech in all circumstances? Yes or no please.

Woody stated:

Most of the disruptions here in the past have been from people who have only been Keys members, such as the regular Nothingness people who pass through."

This strikes me as harsh. This indicates to me a disdain for your little ones, that you see us as less valuable than others more able and advanced.

I think you completely misread me here. The "Nothingness" statement had nothing to do with the rank and file members of this list. Neither does it refer to any as being little people.

It refers to a philosophy of a few who come and go on this list who preach to us about letting go of ego mind (and other things) and enter into the great void between the dualities, which is composed of nothing.

Many of the complaints from the regular members in the past about conflict has been centered around too much attention to this teaching.

Woody:

JJ, you may be tempted to curse me for saying what I have said.

Not even close. How could I curse someone warm and fuzzy such as yourself?

The wages of sin are death, but by the time taxes are taken out, it's just sort of a tired feeling.  Paula Poundstone