2004-10-21 06:21:00
Gopi writes:
[Raises Zen stick overhead and hits table] The grass is green [Raises Zen stick overhead and hits table] Flowers are red. Is it enough mind or not enough mind?
What is it with these Zen masters hitting the table with a stick? Sounds like tricky emotional dualism.
Answer: Not nearly enough mind. In fact no mind is even represented here, only brain registration. If you are going to talk about the brain then talk about the brain. If you are going to talk about mind then lets really talk about mind - and move beyond kindergarten.
Gopi:
This means that when a person has made contact with the divine, he or she radiates the light of Truth, which cannot be denied since it automatically heals, produces miracles and burns impurity. Its light is invincible, supernal and so "shouts" from the "rooftops" of this world, without speaking a verbal word.
I guess this leaves out the nothingness people who are posting here because I don't think anyone sees any divine radiance going on here. If we take away their thoughts and words, as they suggest, there is nothing radiating or being communicated, let alone being shouted from the housetops. Strange claim you make with no evidence or power to demonstrate.
Gopi:
Finally, dark forces can and do work through false prophets, people who nonetheless may believe that they are under a direct commission from God, such as President Bush for example.
I thought you believed in telling the truth. Bush never made such a claim.
Unless it is on topic we like to leave attack politics out of the discussions.
In an interesting side note, Bush publicly mentioned the name of Jesus Christ eight times during the last three years of his administration while Clinton mentioned it 43 times during the last three years of his administration.
Gopi:
There is no heart chakra in the head. There is no faculty in the head that can experience love.
All serious students of the Ancient Wisdom know there is a heart center in the head. Let me give you quotes from DK. I'll give references so students and read them in greater context if desired. Even better would be for you to experience this second heart center.
DK quotes:
I have here given you a most valuable hint and item of information. In this connection it is valuable to bear in mind that the first meditation has relation to the heart centre in the spine, and that this second meditation is only effective when the disciple can work with the heart centre in the head. As soon as this becomes possible, the disciple realises three things:
- 1. The relation of the heart centre to the twelve-petalled lotus in the head.
- The necessity of directing the energy of love (the product of the activity of the heart centre) to the service of humanity via the ajna centre.
- The establishing of a triangle in the etheric body, composed of a line of energy between:
- The twelve-petalled lotus in the head.
- This lotus and the ajna centre.
- The ajna centre and the heart centre.
This creates a peculiar triangle:ntre and the heart centre. This creates a peculiar triangle.
Discipleship In the New Age, Vol 2 Page 182
As the pineal gland is returned to full adult functioning (as is not the case with adult man) the divine will-to-good will make itself felt and divine purpose be achieved; when the thymus gland similarly becomes active in the adult, goodwill will become apparent and the divine plan will begin to work out. This is the first step towards love, right human relations and peace. This goodwill is already making its presence felt in the world today, indicating the coming into activity of the heart centre, and proving that the heart centre in the head is beginning to unfold as a result of the growing activity of the heart centre up the spine.
g. It is the organ of fusion, just as the head centre is the organ of synthesis. As the heart centre becomes active, the individual aspirant is slowly drawn into an increasingly closer relation to his soul, and then two expansions of consciousness take place which are interpreted by him as events or happenings.
Esoteric Healing, Page 160
There is a downflow of energy from the ajna centre to the heart from the soul, just in so far as the aspirant is in touch with his soul. This leads to three things:
- A stimulation of the heart centre.
- A responsive reaction from the heart which evokes a stimulation of the ajna centre and produces eventually the recognition of group consciousness by the personality.
- The evocation of the heart centre in the head.
Esoteric Healing, Page 169
This is indicated by the fact that the reflection of the heart centre in the head is turning upwards in response to an increased activity of the heart centre itself, and that the definition of the ajna centre is clear and exact, demonstrating an integrated, coordinated personality.
Esoteric Healing, Page 180
Gopi:
Love is not a feeling but a neutral, cosmic force, and it has no duality, no opposite.
Then what is the opposite of hate? If hate has no opposite I guess it is not dualistic either.
Love is an attractive force (and you just admitted it is a force). For love or force to manifest there has to be the force pulling to the center and the thing being pulled upon. I have said this before, but you seem to ignore it except in giving an authoritative pronouncement that I am wrong. That doesn't quite cut it on this list.
You say love is not a feeling, yet you say you experience it. All experience involves feeling. You are contradicting yourself.
Gopi:
Love does not require human feeling in order to exist. Love exists eternally. Sweet human feeling is a very tiny expression of love, at best.
But it's a good start. Why don't you guys start there where us neophytes can see some love in manifestation. This love which is beyond words, beyond feeling, beyond mind, beyond understanding, beyond duality is over our heads. Perhaps we just need to be shown that you understand rudimentary love as expressed in kindness, friendship, consideration, service, giving, selflessness and a helping hand.
Gopi:
Love and Wisdom are one, not a duality. There is no true love without wisdom and vice versa. Love is wisdom and wisdom is love.
Where do you get this idea? Love and wisdom are such a duality it is even represented in the Hierarchy as duality in evolution. This is represented by the great souls who have become Masters of Wisdom on hand (such as DK, KH, Jesus etc) and the Lords of Compassion on the other.
Keep in mind that both heart centers have twelve petals each represented a total of 24 energies. 24 is certainly more than one and a number found in duality.
Gopi:
Love is only attractive to the pure in heart or the humble, but love can also be a fire to the impure and so the effect of divine love can be repulsive.
So love can be and attractive or repulsive force. Do I see an admission of dualism here?
Gopi:
Ask any reptilian about that if you dare!
I asked my pet alligator and he didn't say anything.
Gopi:
Love reveals the truth in a world that is for the most part hiding, afraid and ashamed. That is why love is often persecuted and even crucified.
Love reveals feeling. Spirit reveals truth through mind. If you do not believe me try to tell me one truth revealed through love that is not associated with feeling.
Gopi:
If love were dualistic, then it would alternate and would not be eternal.
According to your own words it does alternate. You said we used to experience it when we were at home with God. You now point out that the people on the list who do not listen to you have fallen away from love. For love to be with us at one time and then not another is alternation.
In addition to this, during the great pralaya when the universe is folded up, love will not exist except as a seed idea in the mind of God to become manifest again in a new universe.
Gopi:
Abandoning our concepts of God, that which we have been told and that which we have learned intellectually, or through theology or some religious training or even ideas we have gathered through reading spiritual books or going to spiritual classes is imperative.
Maybe you should follow your own advice and abandon the concepts you are talking about here. Maybe the true reality you talk of would then manifest to you.
Gopi:
Why? Because a concept about God is not God. A concept of God won't heal. A concept of God won't bring grace or enlightenment. A concept of God has no power.
I think you're preaching to the choir here. Most people on the list prefer the real to the concept.
Gopi:
If I was to say to you that to me God is a Presence, Omnipresence. What does that mean?
It means the meaning you have given it to yourself.
Gopi:
What does Jesus mean when he speaks of a Father within? What does Buddha mean by his term that translates as "the Godhead"? If we are honest about it, we really don't know. Each of these teachers have had an experience of God that translated itself to them in a way that they could know beyond words and thoughts.
Yet Jesus taught in words and thoughts. The scripture even says:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Putting thoughts into words were pretty important to Jesus. Here are some examples:
John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God:
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Matt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Matt 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
Sounds like Jesus thought it was important to listen to words, especially true words. Do you know something he did not?
Gopi:
To be content with what we have learned from a textbook even a spiritual textbook or what we have been taught from our pastor, preacher, minister or spiritual teacher is to be leaning upon a mental concept and all mental concepts WILL FAIL.
Are you saying then we are to ignore your ministrations to us?
Gopi:
There comes a time in everyone's experience when we begin to see that a concept about God is not God. And we have been praying to these concepts. We have been praying to a non-existent god made in our image and likeness.
We? You, perhaps. Not We.
Gopi:
Be willing to drop all concepts of God. Be willing to admit, "Father, I really don't know you. But, I want to know you, to have an experience of You."
Hope you're able to accomplish this. Perhaps then we can see that radiant light and love radiating from you for all to see that you previously talked about.
Gopi:
Don't be afraid for a season to put aside all books, teachings and teachers. To come to God, empty handed, with a clean slate and then let God reveal God to you. Go within, become still and be receptive to God's wisdom instead of man's thoughts. Refuse to borrow from anyone's thoughts about God. This is the Way.
OK, I'll follow your advice and ignore everything you've been saying. Going within now.... Deeper within.... Deeper.... OH, there you are. How are you doing God? Is it time to return already? It's up to me you say? Mind if I hang around earth a while longer? I like sharing things that is in your Mind. OK you say? Great, because I'm enjoying myself.
Let not a man guard his dignity, but let his dignity guard him. Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803 - 1882)
Copyright 2004 by J J Dewey