2004-10-5 04:00:00
Gar Quoting me:
"On this plane we may take a bath in water that is 100 degrees. Thus it is an absolute fact that the water was 100 degrees."
Actually, it is a relative 'fact', and so not a FACT at all.
JJ:
Why do you think this? Can anything change the absolute fact that the water was 100 degrees at that point in time and space? Are you saying you can go back in history and change the temperature? That is what you would have to be able to do if it is relative.
Gar:
Masters are able to walk through fire and emerge unscathed.
JJ:
What does this have to do with the subject? A Master walking through anything does not change the temperature of my bath water.
Gar:
Using their divinely-aligned will they can transcend all physical laws and 'facts' and so negate them, demonstrating that in the physical world there are no enduring facts, but only a light and shadow movie that passes away when the TRUTH appears (is realized).
JJ:
All facts are eternal. It is eternally true that I am typing at this computer at this point in time and space. A million years from now it will still be true that I was here typing at this point in time.
Gar quoting me:
"Now let us switch to the astral plane and take a bath. Let us suppose someone tells you they have a bath prepared for you that is 100 degrees. Will it be 100 degrees? It depends. If you feel that 100 degrees is too hot and want 80 degrees that is what it will be. Why? Because form is created in that world out of emotional mater governed by feelings and desire."
It is the same in the physical world, except that it generally takes longer for physical matter to be shaped by desire (will) due to its greater density.
JJ:
Then it is not the same. In addition matter must he shaped by action here whereas in the astral it is formed by desire.
Gar:
There is no fundamental difference between astral, etheric or physical matter other than its rate of vibration and therefore its density.
JJ:
That is like saying there is no difference between oxygen and iron because they are both made of protons and electrons. Just like there is a great difference between oxygen and iron even so are there many significant differences between the physical and the astral - the main one being that the astral is manipulated by feeling and the physical mainly by action.
Gar:
Both the astral world and the physical are part of maya, and while the mind of man may choose to compartmentalize, categorize and discriminate, it is all still maya: essentially the same ephemeral illusion rising and passing away many times per second.
JJ:
Because they participate in maya does not mean they do not exist. It merely means that we do not perceive the existence as it really is.
DK says this:
"Maya is oft regarded as being of the same nature as the concept promulgated by the Christian Scientist that there is no such thing as matter. We are asked to regard the entire world phenomena as maya and to believe that its existence is simply an error of mortal mind, and a form of auto-suggestion or self-hypnotism. Through this induced belief we force ourselves into a state of mind which recognises that the tangible and the objective are only figments of man's imaginative mind. This, in its turn, is likewise a travesty of reality."
He also indicates that the effects of matter are mostly demonstrated on the physical plane: "On the physical plane (and by that I mean upon the etheric levels of the physical plane whereon the deceptive power of maya is experienced) there is the meeting of the forces of the subjective world..."
He tells us that the principle behind maya is caused by the pull of matter itself and this pull distorts our vision. This pull of matter must be overcome before we can move to the next level and then tackle glamour, the main obstacle of the astral plane.
This is a little different approach to maya than some teachings, but the important point is that true principles are presented and if the principle is seen then light will come.
Gar:
The transient 'facts' of maya are not TRUE in the divine sense; therefore neither are they FACTS, which must be able to demonstrated forever and in all cases for them to be TRUE.
JJ:
What is the difference between truth in the divine sense and truth that is not divine? Does not all truth lead to the divine?
I would be interested in what you consider to be three divine truths and then three that are not divine.
Gar:
Maya is maya and TRUTH is TRUTH, and never can the two become one.
JJ:
Of course they are one. Maya is a true principle and has a truth behind it as divine as any other truth. Just because you are lost in a maze this does not mean that the construction of the maze is not part of a true principle.
Gar:
Truth cannot manifest in an illusion.
JJ:
Yet it is true that there is such a thing as illusion - therefore even illusion is a part of the whole truth.
Gar:
If it did, then the illusion (maya) would be transmuted and would cease to exist, along with the 'facts' of that illusion.
JJ:
Maya will cease to exist during the great pralaya, but the facts of the illusion will always be a part of history.
Gar:
TRUTH is not illusion, and illusion is not TRUTH. TRUTH is True and Factual; illusion is false and emphemeral, impermanent, a mirage, substanceless, and will pass away.
JJ:
Everything passes away so you are saying there is no such thing as truth. You seem to be using a much different definition of truth than in the dictionary. If one uses an obscure definition to advance his teaching then the teacher should give the definition at the beginning to avoid confusion as we all assume the regular definition of words unless stated otherwise.
Because something passes away does not mean it is not true. I ate lunch a while back and am no longer eating lunch, yet it is still true I ate lunch.
This is quite basic truth and surprised we need to cover this as all children understand this.
Gar:
JJ, it seems that you are teaching people here to regard maya as a FACT (even absolute FACT!), as REAL, as PERMANENT, while all enlightened teachers have always taught the exact opposite.
JJ:
I teach that maya is a fact and true, but I said nothing of it being permanent. Nothing is without change. Change is the only thing in the universe which is permanent. So according to your definition it would seem that the only truth in the universe is change.
Gar:
There is a karma-free divine Astral World and an undivine shadow or reflection/imitation astral world.
JJ:
I've never heard about a karma free astral world. According to DK the entire astral is not built on a true principle but created through the interplay of mind and etheric matter. If you consider that the astral is created only through interplay of planes one and three then one could reason that little or no karma would play out if one were consigned to that sphere alone. Emotion wrongly expressed in the physical world would definitely lead to karma.
Gar:
This word, "learning" does not apply to what is already True and so divinely Perfect. It applies only to amnesiac souls, and even then only as a "remembrance" of Truth which has been forgotten. There is no real "learning" in the eternally complete All; there is only choice, play, possible forgetfulness and remembering.
JJ:
Why do you assume there is something eternally complete? If there were such a thing then there would be no creation. Because there is creation we have proof that there is no eternal complete.
Can you think of a greater hell than being eternally complete and doing absolutely nothing forever? If such a thing did exist there would be no consciousness, no life, no being and no creation or power to create.
Gar:
Mostly, souls on this mayic earth-plane do not incarnate in order to learn (after all, what can be truly learned that is Real from and in an illusion?), but to re-Member; that is to say - to re-unite with Truth, with God, or perhaps to play some more or to Call other fragments of the Great Forgetting in order to inspire them to go the Way of Return that leads back to eternal Freedom.
JJ:
Are you saying we came here just to go back? Then God is surely flawed to allow such a convoluted thing to occur. Why leave and get immersed in illusion in the first place if that is all there is to it?
Gar:
The brain and mind/intellect are faculties born of mayic identification; they are made of the same substance (slow vibration) as maya and so can never comprehend or know Truth, which vibrates beyond them, just as the microscope of the secular scientist can never see God.
JJ:
But the scientist can see truths in the creation of God. Our brains can register true facts which is the first step toward greater truths. He who denies true facts goes backwards on the path and he who acknowledges them goes forward.
Gar:
If we followed or remained true to the universal laws as opposed to the temporal laws of maya, we would never have forgotten in the first place.
JJ:
I disagree. We had to come here to move forward on the path. There is no other way. Before we incarnated we did not understand universal laws.
Gar:
We could have played in maya, had fun in temporal co- creation (which was the original Intention), while ever leaving open the portal leading back to the Truth. This is indeed the situation for countless sparks or souls in the higher realms who have never chosen to seriously follow "Lucifer" by actually believing that mayic reality has Substance. However, those fragments that did choose to go the way of self-will and so to create an illusion and then become wholly identified with that illusion, have themselves closed the portal; they no longer believe or have faith and have become so entrenched in the false that they require avatars and God- men to remind them of what they long ago, in time, forgot.
JJ:
Does this include you? Are you here because you chose to follow Lucifer and left the portal going the way of self will? You are obviously here with the rest of us in this illusion you describe. Have you found the way out? If so why are you still here?
Gar:
If we give any credence to the ideas and beliefs that we accumulate in our minds, then we are only perpetuating maya in our own consciousness, for thoughts and beliefs are of maya; they do not exist in Truth.
JJ:
You seem to give a lot of credence to these thoughts and beliefs you are presenting to us. Is this taking you further into Maya and illusion?
Science is facts; just as houses are made of stones, so is science made of facts; but a pile of stones is not a house and a collection of facts is not necessarily science. Henri Poincare (1854 - 1912)
Copyright 2004 by J.J. Dewey, All Rights Reserved