2004-4-30 06:58:00
Robert, or should I call you by your former name of Felix? It's a relief to find out you are the same person as I was beginning to suspect a greater hypnotic effect than I thought as Robert and Felix use the same phraseology, logic and talking points - more uniform than the standard religious zealots.
At first you came across much calmer than Felix but your recent posts have been extremely similar. The fact that you have been, overall, more considerate this time is encouraging.
Care to tell us your real name? We don't bite.
Robert:
Would you agree that the word reason and the word belief do not go together well?
JJ:
On the contrary, they go together quite well. A belief is the result of reasoning with the facts available, usually with some missing. Glenys and I have reasoned you are Felix, but we do not have all the facts. It is therefore a belief of which we are 99% sure.
Robert:
A sore sight for the eyes of the intelligent, logical person who abstains from denying the experiences of another.
JJ:
No one here is denying any experience.
Robert:
I would much prefer to see the words reason and fact together - with belief nowhere in the whole picture.
JJ:
Once you have all the facts you often do not need reason. If you have the fact that the sky is blue then no further reasoning is necessary about the color of the sky. (Please do not give me a lecture on esoteric colors)
Robert:
I wonder if you would look me in the eye and claim flat out, "I know for a fact that Benjamin Creme is not, nor has ever been, overshadowed by the real Christ".
JJ:
I don't even know that about Hitler. Maybe he was on the right track when he was younger. I do know that Hitler later made grievous errors.
Robert:
It would be a bold, although ignorant, statement. Why ignorant? Because you do not know in fact - and if you do - it has not been brought to my attention.
JJ:
I have no desire to judge the life of Creme, but I will judge the facts circulating around him and it is a fact that his predictions were way off. It is also a fact that the Christ would not make such obvious blunders.
Robert:
What has been brought to my attention are your beliefs and even when you focus on facts (i.e. Creme's time-frames have proved false) you still rely on beliefs to support your position.
JJ:
I'm relying on the facts. He was just plain wrong.
Robert:
The correspondence is fundamentally flawed because Creme does not create hypnotic situations - do you not understand this? If Creme created hypnotic situations I would acknowledge the validity of your analogy.
JJ:
Anytime you have a "messenger" speaking for God or Christ you have a hypnotic situation where the believer's mind is no longer his own.
Now in the Piscean age the Brotherhood of Light used this technique because the followers were not evolved enough to move beyond it. Times have changed and seekers are being taught to think for themselves in connection with the soul.
Robert:
Do you honestly think that when he talks to a stranger about the message - they bypass their critical faculty and automatically fall into a deep trance?
JJ:
Strangers no, followers such as yourself, yes.
Robert:
Is Creme an authority to these people who encounter the message for the first time?
JJ:
Not usually.
Robert:
It should be obvious with whom Creme has authority - it is earned authority with the workers within the group he belongs.
JJ:
It's pretty difficult to become an earned authority to true seekers when the teacher makes prediction after prediction that is blatantly incorrect and brings forth no new principles.
Robert:
Am I to believe that over 3000 workers are deluded, not aware of Aquarian energy and waiting for someone to bring it to their attention that they are side tracked?
JJ:
Are we to believe that a billion Catholics are wrong when they believe the Eucharist is transformed into the actual flesh and blood of Christ? That large number has to tell us the doctrine is correct - no?
Robert:
It could be true that some group workers blindly believe Creme - but I know of not one example when he has knowingly taken advantage of someone, not even one person, and used his authority for deceitful purposes with selfish motive.
JJ:
The Mormon prophet is also a decent fellow and the LDS think he speaks the words of Christ, but a much different message than Creme.
Robert:
I am a part of a group with over 3000 others and we live around the world. It is a simple fact that many of these people do not even see Creme once a year. There is no constant surveillance and dictatorship from Creme - the group IS an organism.
JJ:
Good for you. Then you are like 99% of the other groups.
Robert:
It is decentralized, evolving, dynamic, inclusive and knows it is intelligent to recognize the guidance and counsel of Creme AND others who have the experience, the knowledge and the wisdom. Anyone can become a part of the group. The Share International magazine is a non- profit 'organization' that exists because of the willful service of people who volunteer; nor does Creme himself financially profit from the work he does anent the Emergence message.
JJ:
Sounds like the Mormon church. Most authorities make little or no money from the church. They also tell their members that Christ is coming in as physical body "very soon." They have been saying this for 150 years.
Robert:
The group that Creme is a part of is not another Waco or Heaven's Gate. Perhaps you should listen to you own advice and have some common sense? :-) Regarding Creme: Like you, he teaches occult obedience - the confirmation from the soul. Like you, he teaches the importance to think and discourages blind devotion. Like you, he elaborates on principles, he teaches anent selfless service, he guides a person to do the best and greatest they know.
JJ:
Of course, he teaches some good stuff. He has read Alice A. Bailey and passes the teachings on. All Bible believers teach some good things out of the Bible even the ones where members are under a deep sleep and do not think for themselves.
Robert:
Your students deem you an earned authority - why is it so difficult to understand that Creme is an earned authority and not a cult leader to his co-workers?
JJ:
I do not see how he earned it.
Robert:
Because you simply believe his message is false? Because you hold on to the beliefs anent how and when the reappearance will happen? Because the very few time-frames regarding the reappearance proved to be inaccurate? I hope you realize that the reasons you stand on are feeble, trivial and originate from the lower mind and can not ascend higher.
JJ:
I reject him because when he is not quoting Alice A. Bailey he is wrong more often than he is right. Even today I read in the paper proof he is wrong again. Authorities are now sure Al Quada was in on the planning of the bombings in Spain. Creme stated that they were not. I'm sure the evidence surfacing on this will have no effect on you though because Creme says otherwise.
Robert:
Please pardon another question, but to the casual observer are your beliefs not very strange? The casual observer who knows next to nothing about esotericism would think of you how you think of Creme - or even worse.
JJ:
My problem with Creme is not that his teachings are strange. I like strange. Many of his statements have been proven wrong.
By the way, do you know what he said about Y2K in the nineties? I've suspected he was predicting disaster and cannot find any statements by him about it. They are probably deleted from the web.
Robert:
You spoke of Creme, "Where I see a lack of evidence is in his claim that Christ is speaking through him." JJ, brother, what sort of evidence is needed, how would it be verified and would obtaining this evidence break occult law? JJ: Not at all. His teachings need to be verified by the heart, mind and soul. Real truth is consistent and touches the soul.
Robert Quoting DK:
The training of the intuition to recognize spiritual truth should be the subject of your effort. The sole authority is the teaching, and not the teacher; upon the rock of authority many schools have foundered. There is but one authority - each man's own immortal soul, and that is the only authority which should be recognized."
JJ:
Agreed. Creme needs to read this.
Robert:
I will continue to explain why your hypnotist-hypnotism analogy is not applicable - and I ask: because there are people who trust Creme does that mean they are sleeping sheep hypnotically controlled?
JJ:
If Creme was consistently not proven wrong then you may have a point. But to trust someone when their errors do not warrant trust is usually traced back to a hypnotic effect.
Robert:
The bond of trust between your students is present and can eventually be utilized to so-called hypnotize them, or at least some of them, even if that trust is earned by teaching spirituality.
JJ:
Some may trust me more than they should, but my closest associates have challenged me a number of times quite aggressively. Because I have always answered them with reason and soul energy they respect me, even if they do not agree 100%. This is as it should be until we all become soul infused and even then there will be some differences.
Robert:
However I do not understand the logic behind your statement, "You are to blame if you believe anyone's words without critically thinking about them and running them by your soul."
JJ:
It's pretty simple. I recommend that students do not follow your example and believe Creme's supernatural statements and predictions when so many have been proven wrong. One must use critical thinking as far as possible as well as run the information by your soul. Each of us are responsible for what we accept.
Robert:
Critically thinking about some words and 'running them by your soul' are thankfully not the same thing and are very different. Although, the two processes would resemble to be the same if you identified your lower concrete mind to be the soul.
JJ:
A person with soul contact does not discontinue use of his lower vehicles. He uses the higher and lower.
Robert;
And JJ, what happens when a person does not have the immediate option to go for a jog and run a few words by the soul?
JJ:
The soul reaches down top all humanity in diverse ways. All have the option to seek.
Robert:
Also, a few posts back I inquired as to whether or not the soul can even confirm data and you did not provide an answer.
JJ:
The soul communicates in the language of principles, but if you have enough facts together you begin to paint the picture of a principle which the soul can confirm.
Robert:
Carrying on - have I relinquished my critical faculty like the subject of a hypnotist? Do you seriously believe I am unable to critically think? How critical I am of your cherished beliefs should be evidence of my ability to discern.
JJ:
You can be critical of me because you do not accept me as your guru or hypnotist. I've asked you before to prove you are able to think critically of Creme by telling us a few things with which you disagree or perhaps not sure of. You did not respond.
Robert:
Creme's list (of initiates) is yet another factor that determines his earned authority - at least in relation to Bailey's esotericism.
JJ:
Why do you believe the list is accurate? This is typical data that we have no way to verify. It's like me telling you that there are fifty planets circling Sirius. Who can prove it right or wrong?
Robert:
How about you actually study the rays of the people on the list and confirm or deny the accuracy with the information in your mind? Glenys, darling, hun, kiwi - the information in the list of initiates would increase glamour only if you allow it and become attached to the personalities of the names on the list. For example, what if Joseph Smith was factually 1.7 initiate when he died and you believe he was 3.9 - could this data be deglamourizing? Even if the concrete mind possesses many details about Smith's life and discerns him to be much higher on Jacob's ladder - the belief that Joseph Smith is almost a 4th degree initiate at 3.9, could be a painful attachment to renounce.
JJ:
Not as painful as it would be for you to find out that Creme was wrong about the 1.7. Joseph Smith, by the way, wrote about his transfiguration initiation and his contact with the dweller.
Finding truth is never painful if you are not attached to your beliefs.
Robert:
Is the knowledge I arrive at through my critical thought process no longer valid because that information does not agree with your information?
JJ:
No, but if one statement you accept disagrees with the next statement you accept something is wrong.
Creme makes a prediction. Believers accept without question. It is proven wrong. He then makes a similar prediction all over again. There is something wrong when he is in error again yet still accepted. Where is the logic here?
Robert:
I have weighed the 'strange' and 'fantastic' explanations from Creme and they are reasonable in my mind.
JJ:
It is a sign of hypnotic effect when contradictions are reasonable.
Robert:
I cannot provide reasons only beliefs.
JJ:
That explains a lot.
Robert:
You can accuse him of lying about a time-frame that proved inaccurate, but I do not think he lied nor had any malicious, deceptive motive.
JJ:
I did not say he lied. I said he was deluded.
Robert:
JJ, you wrote in a past post about Creme's possible time-frame, "I rejected the prediction for the following reasons. (1) I had knowledge that Christ would not come until some time after the turn of the millennium. This was too soon for him to appear" along with you also writing, "There are at least 20 years of preparation before he can "appear" in the physical." I recognize that you are a thinking man and can think for yourself, yet, please write about the knowledge (external information) you had/have. For the sake of curiosity on my behalf. Are these Bailey writings and if so, where did you obtain this specific data?
JJ:
Not from Bailey, but from personal experience which I will not relate in full at this time.
Robert:
I have read a bunch of the Bailey books and have not found writings that contradict Creme, especially concerning the *new* details Creme has provided.
JJ:
DK contradicts Creme on teachings of nuclear energy and pacifism. Creme supports current pacifism the likes of which were seen as a great delusion by DK.
Robert:
So because these new details cannot be verified in Bailey or Blavatsky, they disprove what Creme writes? Surely you jest.
JJ:
I have no idea what you are talking about.
Robert:
But do you deny and disbelieve that my soul has confirmed that the real Christ is in physical form and has lived in London since 1977?
JJ:
Maybe you had some gas and thought it was your soul. Tell us your experience with your soul that made you believe this? Exactly what happened?
Didn't Creme also say he was in Italy?
Robert:
If you refute subjective experiences, mine or Creme's or many others, this conversation will become sterile.
JJ:
I do not refute experience. You can find no example of this.
Robert:
And so I ask - do you make the intellectual conclusion and point out an illusion that I suffer from?
JJ:
The illusion that Christ can tell Creme four or more times that he will manifest to the world on a specify date and then not show up for any of the four occasions. Obviously the Master of Masters is more trustworthy than this.
Robert:
I only ask you to not depend on conclusions that are made by the lower mind; the vehicle for beliefs.
JJ:
Why don't you start the process by setting an example?
Robert:
I only ask you to recognize that the lower mind is finite and when it is not adaptable it becomes the residence of crystallized beliefs; a tool that becomes dangerous when not sharpened with new information.
JJ:
You sound word for word like your alter ego - Felix. Are you trying to outdo Creme in your maneuverings?
Robert:
Not once in all of the Blue Books did Master Djwhal Khul use the term "reasonable doubt" and in my mind it is a rather oxymoronic combination of words.
JJ:
Not once did he say that Bush is wrong so Bush must be right all the time.
"Reasonable doubt" is useful language in my opinion even though I rarely use it.
Robert:
The problem arises if you are a devotee to your lower mind; the vehicle that creates doubt.
JJ:
You have no evidence to support this judgmental conclusion of your own lower mind.
Robert:
Did you not mean the 'common sense' of the lower mind; which as a tool cannot see, hear, touch, smell and taste the Person of Christ?
JJ:
I mean what I say. Common sense can determine the truth of many things that do not require soul contact. Common sense tells me the sun will come up in the morning.
Robert:
In a previous post you wrote how it is common sense to believe Creme wrong and deluded - so it is my common sense to think you did mean the common sense attributed to the lower mind :-)
JJ:
Your sense of truth is very uncommon. Yes, common sense is a quality of the lower mind. So what? This does not mean that I do not also use the Spiritual Triad.
Robert:
Well, JJ, care to give me some pointers about Creme's glamours?
JJ:
His handwriting reveals a strong desire for attention to self or the ego - similar to Barbara Streisand or Robin Williams or but less demonstrative. This trait would therefore not be so obvious to the devotee.
Robert:
Also, it is a severe accusation to say Creme does not admit he has been 'wrong' and it is an untrue accusation at that. Creme has admitted, and most importantly, he has admitted to the group.
JJ:
Like I have said, I have not read all Creme has written, but I have not come across anything where he admits he is wrong when it is obvious to a casual observer. Can you give me an example?
Robert:
Well - do you care to share the prophecies you have made that have come true and those that have failed?
JJ:
Before Creme made his prediction that Christ would manifest (in the lecture I attended) I wrote that he would not appear until some time after the turn of the century.
I have sparingly made predictions to the list for no one can predict with 100% accuracy. So far I have not gotten any wrong, but then I do not claim that Christ is directly giving them to me either - so if I make a wrong one (which is possible) I will at least not embarrass my Master.
Robert:
It is one thing to claim Creme has wrong predictions and another thing to not provide the predictions, let alone some kind of evidence that these so-called predictions are wrong.
JJ:
How many times do I have to tell you that Creme has a number of time set a specific date for Christ's appearance on world wide TV which has not materialized? Not even he disputes this has happened. Any failed prediction I have quoted is not disputed by SHARE.
Robert:
Last night I was pondering and came to be aware of a perhaps fruitful notion - if it is to be realize. The idea being: it is completely and wholly futile to consider the reappearance attached to a date; a time.
JJ:
That's also what the Bible says. Too bad Creme wasn't as smart as you and embarrassed his master (whoever he is) with false prophesies.
Robert:
In conclusion to this letter I would like to make it known that after this topic of conversation comes to an end, I seek to contribute to the list with what I can offer - though my anecdotal tales may be sparse being 23 years of age - I will write what I know.
JJ:
Sounds like a plan. Like I say I have seen great potential in you. We will leave the Creme discussion soon and move onward. We'll see what you are made of when we see you use your mind and soul with no middleman jumping in.
If you want to scan in a sample of your handwriting and e-mail it to me I'd be willing to give a brief analysis of you to the group. I think they are curious about you. Give me about a hundred words and sign your name like you do on a check.
Please, just Robert's writing at this time for my time is limited.
The finest kind of friendship is between people who expect a great deal of each other but never ask it. Sylvia Bremer
Copyright 2004 by J.J. Dewey, All Rights Reserved