Comments

2004-4-21 06:16:00

Arit writes the following:
I've just been reading JJ Dewey's writing. To be specific, his explanation of 1Thessalonians 4:13-17 says the dead remain dead till the return of Christ on earth so where does reincarnation come in? In other words when does one really reincarnate?

Here is the text of the scripture:

I Thess 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
I Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
I Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
I Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
I Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

JJ:
I would guess that the verse you are concerned about is where Paul said that them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Evidently you think that because the righteous are sleeping, that they cannot reincarnate. But we need to look at verse 17 which says this:

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Notice here the interesting phrase that Paul expects himself and others to be alive when the Lord comes again. Now it's been around 2000 years since Paul said this in Christ has not yet come.

There are two ways that Paul and his disciples could be alive when the Lord comes.

(1) Through reincarnation.
(2) Christ made a second appearance in his lifetime.

Actually both could be true.

Concerning the second possibility there is an interesting quote from Josephus that indicates that there was some type of second coming in Paul's generation

He recorded a second coming of Christ on May 30, 73 AD: "Besides these, a few days after the feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month -Artemisius, a certain marvelous and incredible phenomenon appeared. I suppose what I am going to tell would seem a fable, were it not related by those who saw it, and were not the sad events that followed it deserving of such signs. Before sunset chariots were seen in the air, and troops of soldiers in their armour running about among the clouds. Moreover, at the feast which is called Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner temple, as was their custom, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that first they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a multitude saying, Let us remove hence." The Jewish War, Book 6, page 106, Chapter 5, section 3.

In addition to this Tacitus, the Roman historian, relating the same events, wrote:

"In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightening flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure" (Histories, v. 13).

In addition, Eusebius (A.D. 325), quoting from the Latin Josephus, in the fourth century wrote:

"For before the setting of the sun chariots and armed troops were seen throughout the whole region in mid-air, wheeling through the clouds and encircling the cities" (Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History, Book 3, Ch. 8)

On the other hand, even if we do not take this miraculous event into consideration the scripture does not discourage the belief in reincarnation. Notice he talks about they who are asleep in the present tense. He doesn't say that they'll remain asleep for 2000 years or for ever.

To Robert:
I was glad to see that a student of DK, such as yourself had joined the list but was disappointed that one as reasonable as yourself is a disciple of Benjamin Creme. Keep in mind, however, your belief system is not important to be a member of the list. The important thing is that you're seeking to learn or contribute.

You seem to have the impression that questions or conversation on Benjamin is not welcome. This is not necessarily the case. We had a problem from the last Creme disciple because he was zealously trying to convert us from an emotional level. If you speak from the plane of the mind and are interesting, the group will consider most any topic. We've already covered a lot about Benjamin Creme and do not want to bore the group with a rehash of past dialogue, but we will entertain some review of past topics if they are of interest.

You appear to be the most intelligent Creme follower that I have met so far so I'll ask you the same question I ask each follower that I meet, which is this.

How could Benjamin Creme be speaking the words of Christ when I am a much better prophet than he is? I first heard him in person, around 1988, predict that within a couple months Christ would appear on television and all the world at one moment would realize who he was. Of course, this did not happen. I knew this was a false prophecy at the time. If Christ is speaking through him why was he so wrong? Am I smarter than the master?

I surmised that the time that he was caught up an astral glamour and also verified this by analyzing his handwriting. You can get a fuller account of this in the archives; you might want to check it out. Just type in Benjamin Creme in the search engine and you'll find a lot of things I said about him.

It seems that every prophecy I read the Creme has made is not come true. and they were usually off not by little, but by a lot. But even a stopped clock is right twice a day so you would think you would come across at least one prediction that would come true even if he was giving them out of random. His followers seem to think he makes lots of predictions that have come true but haven't been able to show any that I have verified. I've tried to find the source material and haven't been able to find anything that verified an accurate prophecy.

In addition to this false prophecy is made a lot of others including a recent one that Saddam Hussein was killed at the beginning of the war. Then when he was captured, Creme said that he was a double. This is obviously wrong. For one thing the double had a suitcase full money with him which is unlikely for a double. Secondly, he is going to be tried by his own people, which the United States would never allow if he were really a double.

Creme also indicated that Dennis Kucinich had a good chance of capturing the presidency. As soon as I heard this prophecy I stated that there was no chance in hell that he would achieve such a thing. He is not the type of guy to inspire confidence - and his belief system is pretty far removed from that of DK's teachings. On the surface this may not seem so, but when you look the details of his philosophy this is obvious. One example of this is his stance against the use of nuclear energy when DK is for it.

What bothers me about Creme even more than the false prophecies is that his message has much less intelligence in it than DK, or even Anthony Robbins or Wayne Dryer.

Another thing that really bothers me about him is it is said he is a member of the Communist party, and from my what I have read it appears he supports implementing communism by force even if a means a totalitarian government. When he speaks of sharing, if you read between the lines, you see that he supports a forced sharing. not a sharing by freewill.

But just because we do not agree with Benjamin Crane, does not mean you're not welcome here. You have been a very reasonably, and as long as you do not generate complaints from the group your are welcome.

Dan, glad to have the onboard. You sound like an interesting character, and a sincere student. Glenys was correct when she said, you're being influenced by principles rather than just feelings. There is a principle behind keeping our word for instance. It goes to the core of the meaning that the word is God. This is one of the secrets of eternal life and in our own little way we can take a step toward mastering the secret by learning to keep our word. You were obviously taught this principle in a past life, and it is embedded within you. When we learn a principle that is a concept that brings understanding, the light remains with us when were reborn, and we intuitively understand how it is to play out in our lives.

10 GB of digital writings is certainly a lot. I have quite a few myself. Those of us with a lot of digital writings ought to form some type of club and share them with each other. It would save a lot of research and downloading.

Thanks also to Bil for giving us some of his background. I'm glad you plan on coming to the gathering. I know we've had a number of new members lately and I would like to welcome them all and hope you find this an oasis of life and love and truth.

One of the first duties of the physician is to educate the masses not to take medicine. --Sir William Osler