Illusion 105.3

2004-4-9 06:21:00

Lance responds to my post:

Question:
Many are saying that Bush lied about weapons of mass destruction and other items. Did he lie or has his enemies created an illusionary definition of a lie so they can accuse?

I am not sure what the 'illusionary definition' of a lie is?

JJ:
I clarified this to be a mistake. A mistake is an unintentional error. A lie is an intentional one.

Lance:
If someone is hell bent on a course of action and therefore uses information that was known to be at best inaccurate and at worst just plain wrong, in order to gain public acceptance for that course of action, then that is deceptive. Saying that this falls outside of the definition of a lie, sounds like 'lawyer speak' to me :)

JJ:
If the information is known to be wrong by the one giving it you would be correct.

Lance:
Did Bush lie? There is no way to know that. Does the evidence point to him making 'truth' fall in line with his predetermined conclusions? Yes it does. Anyone with eyes could see that he was determined that the war in Iraq was going to happen, whatever the truth was in regards to weapons of mass destruction and an 'immanent threat'.

JJ:
I don't think he had any predetermined conclusion to go to war with Iraq before 911. There is evidence that he and his staff talked about the threat of Saddam Hussein and what to do about it but no hard evidence that he made any decision to make war. I followed him closely in the first part of his presidency and it was clear to me that his interest and attention was much more on domestic issues rather than international.

911 changed the focus of his attention and after subduing Afghanistan he concluded that Iraq was a danger that was feasible to neutralize. I see little evidence that he came to a conclusion and distorted the facts to support it. Instead I see that our intelligence services have been gutted over the years and are not as reliable as they should be. This led to some incorrect conclusions.

Both Bush and Tony Blair collaborated with intelligence services and came to the same conclusion. I see no evidence that they got together and colluded on the same lie.

In addition to this the U.N. France, Germany and Russia to the best of their knowledge came to the same conclusions about possible WMD's, but did not want to do anything about them for they were aiding Iraq in supplying weapons materials.

Lance:
The use of intelligence that was known to be either wrong, out of date or totally unreliable is further evidence of this deception.

JJ:
It wasn't known to be wrong. As I said, even the U.N., France and Germany did not dispute the intelligence until after the war.

Lance:
Here are some quotes that show how obvious this deception has now been shown to be.

"Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction. " - Dick Cheney, Vice President


JJ:
This is what the whole world believed. If Cheney was wrong here then it was a mistake and not a lie. But I'm not so sure he was mistaken. We know for sure he had WMD's a few years ago. They had to go somewhere.

Here is a quote from an article I recently read: But reporters aren't talking about the chapter of "Against All Enemies" that describes how Osama bin Laden cooperated with Iraqi scientists to make weapons of mass destruction - a development that, if true, would more than justify President Bush's decision to go to war in Iraq.

In his book, Clarke describes how the Clinton CIA determined in 1996 that Sudan's Shifa chemical plant, which was allegedly bankrolled by bin Laden, was producing the chemical EMPTA.

"EMPTA is a compound that had been used as a prime ingredient in Iraqi nerve gas," writes Clarke. "It has no other known use, nor had any other nation employed EMPTA to our knowledge for any purpose." http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/3/23/221155.shtml

Shortly after the war we discovered satellite photos that revealed the transportation of convoys of trucks to Syria. It was highly suspected that large amounts of WMD's were transported there, but no way to prove it for sure.

Iraqi scientists have told us that WMD's were buried in up to 300 different locations but they are still too fearful for their lives to cooperate fully in finding them. I read about one the other day who was living outside of Iraq and gave an interview under a false name because he was fearful for his family.

I would give it a 50/50 chance that WMD's will yet be discovered.

Lance:
"surveillance photos reveal that the regime is rebuilding facilities that it had used to produce chemical and biological weapons." - George W. Bush

JJ:
Colin Powell showed these photos to the U.N. before the war and none disputed that what he said could was not accurate. These is no evidence that these were not authentic photos. Whether they were accurately interpreted no one knows.

Lance:
"We've also discovered through intelligence that Iraq has a growing fleet of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to disperse chemical or biological weapons across broad areas" - George W. Bush

JJ:
No one has shown that this was not sincerely believed by Bush. Iraq did have unmanned aerial vehicles, but our intelligence was evidently wrong about them.

Lance:
"Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised." - George W. Bush

JJ:
I can see why Bush may have believed this. Before the war I listened to a number of interviews with former Iraqi scientists who said things to this effect with great fervor. A lot of people who looked at the evidence and testimonies believed this.

Lance:
Finally here is a post war snippet from an Interview with George W Bush displaying his brazen disregard for his pre-war reasoning in regards to WMD.

DIANE SAWYER: But stated as a hard fact, that there were weapons of mass destruction as opposed to the possibility that he could move to acquire those weapons still -

PRESIDENT BUSH: So what's the difference?


JJ:
One of the thoughts, even before the war was that Saddam Hussein was hiding various ingredients of WMD's in different locations which could be quickly reconstructed after the sanctions were lifted.

Lance:
I'll leave it up to you to decide if this method of 'getting what you want' is worthy of the accusation of 'lying'.

JJ:
My point in bringing this up was not to rehash old issues but to point out that a mistake is not a lie and it is wrong and highly judgmental to accuse a person of lying when the worst that can be proven is that he made mistakes.

The point of the lesson is that it creates illusion to call a mistake a lie.

I try to make it a point in my life to accuse no one of lying unless it can be proven for sure or unless I receive a revelation on the matter.

Clinton came much closer to lying than Bush when he said: "I did not have sex with that woman." I say closer because in his legalistic convoluted way of thinking oral sex was not sex. By most people's definition of lying - which is conscious deceit - he was lying, but I think he saw it as a technical and legal truth. Even so it definitely led to illusion - an illusion that was uncovered by a blue dress.

I have found in my life that if a person lies periodically that I always see clues that put me on guard. I'm sure that Bush, Blair, Powell, Cheney and Rice have told lies in their lives, but I think they are all basically honest and attempt to communicate accurately without deceit.

I do not get this feeling about Kerry and wouldn't be a bit surprised if he did use botox. If Bush said he did not use botox I would believe him.

History teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have exhausted all other alternatives. --Abba Eban (1915 - 2002)