2003-9-2 16:15:00
Felix:
Creme's role isn't as teacher. Creme is the messenger. But that's not to say he hasn't brought anything new into this world. You, JJ, are surely mistaken if you think that. Have you not read the "Maitreya's Mission" books? Creme, via his Master, has provided thus far 1400 ray structures of deceased initiates along with the initiate's own individual point of evolution. Anyone with a moderate understanding of the rays will soon realize there is no way at all an ordinary person could provide that information. Even the most studied person, who has memorized word for word everything DK has said about the rays could not hoax that. Creme would need to know an extraordinary amount about history, about the personal lives of the 1400 initiates he has given. Even an extraordinary knowledge about history would not suffice such a hoax. There are people on the list of initiates in all fields of life and dating back 2000 years and beyond. How can you discount this?
JJ:
Whether Creme is a teacher or messenger is a technicality that is neither here nor there. Obviously there are teachings emanating from Creme. Some may be from another entity and some from him. We both understand this point.
As Glenys stated, the Ray structures of the 1400 initiates is mere data that cannot be verified. This feat could easily be duplicated by me, Glenys and several others on the list. It may not be accurate, but who could argue against it? Even so, I would be interested in seeing the list. Does one have to buy it or could you supply it to us? It would be interesting to see who he considers initiates and also who he has left out.
Felix:
Perhaps the entity that Creme is in contact with is not a Master per se (5th degree), but some other masquerading entity
JJ:
Creme thinks his Master is Lucifer. He thinks it would be too dangerous for his mission to spread this idea around. He sees the fallen angel as one of the good guys.
But even here, his master is not who he believes him to be.
Felix:
Creme even gives some quite controversial point's of evolution. Hitler being 2.0 ...and at the same time Gandhi is also a 2.0 ...then there is Milarepa, the great Tibetan yogi at 3.5 - but tell a Tibetan Buddhist that Milarepa wasn't a fully enlightened being (5.0) and they will likely disagree.
JJ:
By 2.0 Does he mean a second degree initiate and by 3.5 does he imply that one is between the third and fourth?
Felix:
Creme has also brought Transmission Meditation to the forefront, don't forget. The Masters work with such potent energy, there is a need for it to be stepped down into the world at large.
JJ:
Is the transmission meditation any different than a regular trans channel session? If so tell us how it works. Is the trans state used? Does the voice change?
Felix:
I find it odd though, how you stress "principles" and discredit "data" - yet all a person has to do is read some DK and see how much data is in the material. I find this odd. And funny. You make it known that the Bailey writings have been a big part of your life, but yet you are quick to say a false teacher gives not provable data. If this is so, please JJ, prove to me all of the data that DK has given. Start with "A Treatise on Cosmic Fire" : )
JJ:
I do not discount data, but for a teacher to be a true representative of the Brotherhood of Light he will do more than cut and paste data or create new data that cannot be verified.
Let us suppose that Sean wants to establish himself as a messenger of Space aliens much higher than ourselves. To prove he is in contact with higher lives he lists the names 1400 planets and the type of lives on each one. In addition he lists the names of 100 starship commanders and their basic whereabouts in the universe.
All these fancy names may sound pretty impressive to an astral believer, but one on the plane of the mind or higher would not be impressed at all. Anyone with a little imagination could come up with such things.
On the other hand, only one with true soul contact can come up with a new principle or bring further light on existing principles. Imagination alone will not do the trick.
I am impressed with DK not because of data he presents, but because of the principles he elaborates on. The Law of Correspondences is a principle that he gives much further light on than was previously revealed. The seven Rays is based on the creative principle and many of the laws he talks about operate on principles.
Speaking of space people, it is said that Creme began his messenger career by channeling space aliens way back in 1957.
Felix:
....If you believe in the rays, which i gather you do, why cannot Creme give the ray structures of 1400 people? If you believe in Christ, and if you even believe in the Reappearance and Externalization of the Hierarchy, which i gather you do, why cannot Creme be giving data as to what Their doing?
JJ:
I accepted the possibility when I began investigating Creme, but I found nothing that stimulated soul contact.
I do not expect anyone to believe me if my teachings to not touch his soul. Why should you expect me or anyone else to follow a teacher (or messenger) who does not touch them?
Felix:
Also, you also must remember the truism in occultism that no new teaching can be given until that already given has been put into practice. I gather that this law has slipped your mind JJ.
JJ:
I never heard of this law and do not believe it. We still have not incorporated the teachings of Jesus on love, yet much more has been given out by the Brotherhood since then. You do not need to know all about Algebra I to study Algebra II.
Felix:
The predications that Creme has given out have come from either the Master he works with or the forecasts come from Christ. Again, your reply shows misunderstanding and/or lack of information. All of the forecasts were made within a year or so in the 80s and all have been correct, it's just been a question of when - what exact date. Christ said the Berlin Wall will come down and no one thought it was possible how soon it did, but the predication was right on. Christ said that Nelson Mandela would be released from prison and become president. That is what happened. He said Israelis would withdraw from Lebanon, and they did. He said Thatcher would not finish her term in office and that she would resign, and she did. He warned about the earthquakes in the 80s, and those earthquakes happened. Ireland making peace was a forecast. Christ stated that Communist reign would fall in the Soviet Union... that's a pretty big predication for Creme to bring forth, especially for a Communist as you say Creme is ; )
JJ:
I cannot find the original predictions, but would like to see them. I have found that most predictions that are claimed to be fulfilled by various prophets were really vague when originally written.
I can vaguely say that the government of Cuba will fall and be replaced by a much better one. This will definitely come true at some time, but it is a no-brainer to predict.
It's not me who says Creme is a Communist., but apparently Creme does. Here is part of an interview with Sean David Morton written in 1994:
The ultimate purpose, according to Creme, and I quote, is to "Give over all of your power and energy to the Masters so that they can use it as they please, to facilitate global change." Someone has something backwards here! Spiritual Masters are suppose to reflect the Light of God and the Creation through themselves down TO US, not the other way round. And what do these "Masters" need with all our energy? To quote the now deceased Capt. James T. Kirk, "Excuse me! What does God need with a Starship?" As Creme and I spoke, he began to lay out his global philosophy. His anger was clearly directed primarily at America. He felt that all of Western Civilization should be destroyed and dismantled so that the wealth, mostly of America, could then be "re-distributed" to feed the starving huddled masses of the world. "By what means?" I asked. "They must come to a place of consciousness for it to take place." he answered. "And if they refuse to do it willingly?" I asked slowly. "Then it should be done by force, if necessary!" "That," I replied cautiously, truly wanting to hear what he had to say, "sounds like Communism." "And what's wrong with Communism?" he retorted. "Are you a Communist?" I asked. "Young man, I have been a card carrying Communist for 32 years!" The plot thickens. "Have you ever been to Moscow, or studied there? "Many times!" he said with pride.
Felix:
JJ, this flashing forth is not, how i suspect, you think it happens. The flashing forth takes WORK. If ascending to the plane of intuition was so easy as to read the writings of Master DK, many many more people would be on that plane right now. There is no question that reading DK helps cultivate the intuition, but only to a certain point. There is much work to be done to ascend to the plane of intuition and to stay there.
JJ:
Of course, reading does not take you to the plane of the intuition, but if you are already on that plane you can see the truth of principles when presented.
Felix:
When someone brings up the whole, "Devil in disguise" or "Satan can appear as an Angel of Light" ... that is totally Piscean. Not only is it fear based, but it also creates a division. The division that you have the knowledge so you'll be saved. It creates this barrier between you and your Brother.
JJ:
You are responding to material that no one has brought up. The "angel of light" quote is misused by the religious right, but that is not us.
Felix:
What will it take before you start to know that Christ has returned? Faith. Where is your faith?
JJ:
Christ has never left and will manifest soon in his own way. That is my faith. There are probably a thousand people besides Creme who believe they are Christ or representing him. Sorry if it offends you that I cannot believe them all just because a claim is made.
Felix:
I also just want to note the irony of you using Benjamin Creme's signature to analyze his personality. I find it odd how you emphasize the need to detach from form - but yet you are using form, Creme's signature, to access his inner life. Slightly ironic, no? Hopefully you're aware that as one moves further on the Path of Return, the personality becomes a finer and finer vehicle for the soul - so analyzing a signature only works up to a certain point. Obviously, this is why exoteric astrology has less and less accuracy when assessing an initiate.
JJ:
Handwriting analysis works on initiates as well ordinary people. It is different than exoteric astrology. It is very accurate on the high and low.
The use of handwriting is one of the most objective methods available to check the amount of ego manifest. L. R. Hubbard was another who had a powerful ego. This does not discount the fact that he was very intelligent.
You should not discount the analysis of an expert here. Scientific analysis is more credible than getting some data from Zor of the Jarvis Galaxy.
Felix:
Now for the big answer as to why Creme's so-called predications have not come to happen.
The first time Creme stated that Christ will Reappear, he scheduled a press conference, he put ads in major newspapers, he basically did what he was told to do - because a window of opportunity existed. This "window of opportunity" is very complex. Creme describes the variables of the window of opportunity. Firstly, you have the cosmic energies. These must be right. The prime opportunity to make Himself known is in a positive energy cycle. The problems that go along with this opportunity include - is Humanity sending the invitation? Is the media responsive to cover this event? And how influential will the Black Lodge be to stop such an event from happening.
JJ:
I am not including all your complex explanation here. Explaining why a prophet is right when he is really wrong, is always complex.
My question is this. Since this prediction came from Maitreya who is the Christ then why was he wrong on the following:
(1) He saw the wrong window of opportunity for there turned out to be no opportunity.
(2) He must have thought humanity was sending an invitation that did not exist. How could he be so wrong?
(3) Same idea with the media. He must have thought they were ready when they were not.
The funny thing is that Maitreya apparently told Creme a wrong appearance date quite a number of times. Possibly a half dozen or so. This should tell you something.
This false prediction and convoluted explanation reminds me of the founder of the Jehovah's Witness faith.
One of the founders named Charles T. Russel predicted the return of Christ in the late 1800's. When he didn't show up he moved the date ahead. When he didn't show up again the followers still did not use the process of elimination. Russel took advantage of that belief and moved the date ahead again to 1914.
Well, 1914 came and went but still no Jesus appearing in the clouds. Russel himself refused to eliminate this final date as being wrong and concluded that Jesus did come in 1914, but he just came invisibly and no one saw him. Thus if I understand the current Jehovah's Witness doctrine they still to this day have not eliminated 1914 as the arrival date and accept this as the year of the coming of the Lord.
Perhaps if Creme's Maitreya does not show up soon he will have to also invent an invisible coming.
Felix:
If this great entity was to Reappear full out in the public and claim he is the Christ, this would be a severe infringement on the free will of Humanity. It's very simple once you realize it. This is precisely why He, The World Teacher of this Age, did not first go to someone like Queen Elizabeth or Reagan or the Pope - it's because these people have more social authority than Benjamin Creme does. Realize this. If the Pope declared tomorrow that the Christ has returned in full flesh to this earth - millions and millions of people would without doubt believe the Pope -
JJ:
This is a good point that I have written about years ago. Perhaps someone at Share is reading the archives.
Felix:
Not only does Christ not want followers, but ultimately there is nothing to follow because everything He is - you are.
JJ:
Then why are you here trying to get us to follow you who are following Creme who thinks he is following Christ?
Felix:
If any of this happens this is Piscean and this does no good at all. It would only reinforce the 6th ray Piscean age of Guru/student or priest/masses ...and it's precisely the opposite of that which the Christ is striving towards.
JJ:
Does this mean you are going to drop your guru who is Mr. Creme?
Felix:
Study the 7th ray. It is so immensely practical...and i'm gathering this is the negativity that you seemingly are picking up from me and other people who use the 7th ray. This whole "virtual classroom" is all Piscean. There is you, JJ Dewey, the teacher, and the people on this list are your students. Sincerely, that has so little to do with the 7th ray and Aquarius Age.
JJ:
Are you really saying that during the Aquarian Age there will be no teachers, no classrooms, no students??? Surely you jest.
There are teachers and students in every age and on every ray. Why would you think otherwise?
Let us see who really is on the sixth ray and holding on to the Piscean age.
Some of the keynotes of the Piscean age were idealism, sacrifice, strong unearned authority, reliance on emotion (water sign) above the mind (air sign - Aquarius). Believes through faith - doesn't need mental verification.
Comparison: Felix and the Creme group.
Lots of idealism. Even the false prophesies occur because "ideal" situations were not met.
Lots of emphasis on sacrifice. Even the name of the Organization is "Share" because of the belief we will all have to sacrifice and "share" the wealth as the solution to world problems.
Lots of emphasis on unearned authority. You rely on Creme who relies on some unseen voice that is viewed as a close to infallible authority - surely much more of an authority than any normal human. We are supposed to believe without question because the voice of the master speaks. This is no different than the reliance on the authority of the Priest or Pope of the Piscean age.
Reliance on emotion above mind. You are asking me and others to do this. Even though we have mentally concluded that there is little or no evidence that Maitreya speaks through Creme, you want us to take an emotional leap and believe anyway. I present you with mental and intuitional reasons for my position and you discard them and present us with emotional reasons such as outward signs, loose predictions and ideals.
JJ and Keys Group Emphasis on the practical instead of the ideal.
No false prophesies made to date. I am fallible and will probably make one some day, but they will be rare because I do not see myself as some infallible prophet.
Emphasis on Aquarian service more than sacrifice. The lesson of the past age which is Sacrifice, will be utilized, but not emphasized. Service is the new keynote. We are to serve, and, through cause and effect, reap the benefit of service.
Creme wants to produce the new age by requiring sacrifice. He wants to give everyone a fish, but then they will need a fish tomorrow.
I emphasize service and gaining power to serve. In other words, teach a man to fish and he can then obtain his own fish tomorrow, thus gaining power to be a servant rather than one who is poor with his hand out, requiring sacrifice.
No emphasis on unearned authority but much emphasis on individual soul contact. We encourage all to follow what he believes to be the voice of the soul, even if it disagrees with me. There is no unearned authoritarian invisible voice of some Master that any must follow here. There is only my voice and other voices in the group. The teachings have no claim that they came from a Master. It is the responsibility of the student to discern them with the help of his own soul. I doubt if anyone here believes everything I have written is true. Most are like Blayne who said a while back that he has a number of the teachings on the shelf (meaning he cannot fully accept them), but because he has received soul confirmation on so much that he remains.
Reliance on mind above the emotion. The mind is stressed here on a regular basis. I have taught many times that in the end, if a thing is true then it will make sense. If it doesn't make sense then the teaching should be reviewed again with skepticism.
Conclusion: Felix, Creme and the upline are following the Piscean path.
The Keys is one of the few setting the Aquarian example. Astrologically, I am an ideal one to aid with this, born in the midst of Aquarius and at the very beginning of the Aquarian age. - Feb 6, 1945 at exactly the midway point between the North Pole and the Equator (45 degrees latitude).
Felix:
Even the inability to let go of "scripture" is Piscean.
JJ:
Most of the scriptures were written during the age of Aries, not Pisces.
Where do you get the idea we are supposed to "let go" of the scriptures or any true teachings of the past? Are we supposed to let go of the teachings about love, helping our neighbor, good works etc? There are many good teachings in the scriptures that would be counter to spiritual evolution to "let go." By the way, I notice that you are not practicing what you preach here. You are not letting go of the ideal second coming of Christ as taught in the scriptures.
Felix:
You might be teaching "New Age" ideas, but the way you are teaching is Piscean. Religion how you understand it does not exist in the true Aquarius Age. With you being involved in Mormonism and with you living in America (the USA has a 6th personality) - there is no question that the 6th ray is a part of your energy.
JJ:
I am not a member of any religion, not establishing any religion so your accusation does not hold weight here. To quote a truism from any source has nothing to do with being Piscean or Aquarius.
The sixth ray has an influence on all of us to a degree, me much less than most since none of my bodies are on this ray.
Felix:
Benjamin Creme has said other dates after the May 30th, 1982 date ...and those too have been failures. Surely these failures will cast doubt in the lower mind - this is precisely where the need for a TIME and DATE springs from. The lower mind, the intellect works with time. So it's no wonder when people get anxious when the word "soon" is used. Christ has said "soon" he will be known by all. Do not forget that the Hierarchy have not had physical plane contact with the whole of humanity for 90,000 years! A few dozen years means VERRRRRRRRRY SOON to
JJ:
So you're saying that Maitreya has such difficulty with time (always seeing the big picture) that when he set the date of May 30th, 1982 he really meant, maybe Jan 9, 2010? He just couldn't pinpoint the way a simple human can? If this is so then why did he deceive us by making a pinpoint prediction to begin with? Why didn't he just say I'll come when I'm damn well ready and leave it at that?
Felix:
It's your finite personality that objects to Christ being in the world today and it's your finite personality that rejects this Truth because there isn't enough "proof" that Christ is here. It's really quite sad.
JJ:
It is always brings sadness to one who clings to Piscean ideals for others to look to the mind and refuse blind acceptance.
Felix:
The return to the physical plane by Christ has happened - it is the Reappearance, from a massive public scale, that has not happened yet.
JJ:
According to you the return is very ephemeral. Neither you nor even Creme can go to where he is and shake his hand.
I'd say that when the Second Coming really commences that someone ought to know where he specifically is. (Not just somewhere in London)
JJ Quote: The world will not know who he is for some time after he manifests.
Felix:
Again, it's quite ironic that you would say that. He as been here for 26 years. Are you quoting scripture with the above sentence? If it's in Bailey's writings can you please show me where.
JJ:
No, I did not get it from the Bailey writings and this is not spelled out in the scriptures. This is one of the many things I have taught that the reader needs to run by his soul.
Felix:
Speaking of curiosity, I am curious as to how you think Christ will return. Tell me those thoughts if you have them. Will more and more people get word that He has returned? (perhaps by email via an internet group list). Will more and more people know, via their soul, that He is in the world on the physical plane? Will miracles be happening around the world? Will the energy of the Piscean Age take one last firm grip around people?
JJ:
I've already written a lot of material on this. If you have any difficulty in finding the writings in the archives, let us know.
Felix:
The Reappearance and everything leading up to it comes down to not infringing on the free will of Humanity. It comes down to Christ being invited into the mass pubic, BY the mass public.
JJ:
This is not in harmony with Creme's method which is predicted as follows from Share magazine: "On this Day of Declaration, we will see his face on the television screen wherever we have access. The Biblical statement, "All eyes will see him," will be fulfilled, in the only way in which it can be fulfilled. We will see his face, but he will not speak. His thoughts, his ideas, his call to humanity for justice, sharing, right relationships and peace, will take place silently, telepathically. Each of us will hear him inwardly in our own language."
You say he will not announce himself through the Pope or any other famous person because this would infringe on free will. This is correct, but Creme's method infringes even more upon free will. If everyone in the world is forced to receive mental telepathy from him then this would be a great infringement on free will - much more than appearing to the Pope.
Felix:
Tell me, how else will Christ return without infringing on the free will of Humanity?
JJ:
He will appear without announcing who he is and just begin his work just as he did in Jerusalem of old. The world will not know who he is. All will be free to accept or reject him. There will be no forced telepathy, unless there is some attempt by the Dark Brothers, but even this would only work with the Piscean Age people.
Felix:
If the whole world is to know who He is, how can the media not be involved? How else will Humanity learn of this reality? If He is not to be using television and press conferences, how else is the Christ going to make known His return?
JJ:
Yes, he will be on the media, but the media will not know they are interviewing the Christ and only a few of those watching or listening will recognize his voice. It will be some time before he receives the recognition that is prophesied.
Felix:
So what if we are fooled? It surely is not the end of the world, nor is it the end of my life - because, like you, i am immortal. So since there is nothing to lose and a Christ in the world to gain - i'll pick the Christ in the world : )
JJ:
Fortunately, if you or I are wrong neither of us will burn in hell forever as some zealots teach. That said there are effects for every correct or wrong choice we make.
We are at a time of great opportunity, approaching a period when true disciples will be able to hear again the voice of the Master and directly assist him in his work. If we are looking for a situation or entity that will never appear then we may miss the true Christ when he does come. To miss him will be to miss the greatest opportunity which has been upon the earth since the beginning of history. This same situation may never come again. If one lives in this expectation, misses it and dies, there will be a hell for him to visit when he has his life's review and realizes that which he has missed or rejected. That hell will be the sound of his head banging on a wall cursing himself for what he did not see.
For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism.
Steven Wright
Copyright 2003 by J.J. Dewey, All Rights Reserved