2003-3-15 06:09:00
Xavier:
I haven't heard anyone here in France boast about we Europeans (as countries) being more freedom-bearing than Americans.
JJ:
Quite a few Europeans are lecturing Americans about the dangers of the Patriot Act and other items when their own freedoms are much more at risk through the European Union (EU) than anything that is happening here.
Xavier:
The point is not about saying that Europe is more a land of the free than America, it is about refraining USA from becoming a world wide tyranny leader. That Europe is well ahead ALSO on new world order schedule is not a discovery. (nor an excuse!)
JJ:
I think there is much more danger that the EU could turn into a tyranny in order to hold all their nation states together. Once the Beast gets a little power it will not want to allow much independent thinking or acting.
As far as the United States becoming Tyrannical - this is always possible but so far each nation that we have had war with (or for) and prevailed, is better off with more freedom than before war. A partial list is Germany, Japan, Italy, South Korea, Kuwait, Bosnia and Afghanistan. In addition, the no fly zone was established in Iraq to save the Kurds from extinction. If we are so tyrannical then why have all the countries where we have had power to dominate given greater freedom???
Even you, my friend from France, would be speaking German and worshipping Hitler as a God without our help.
We have given our best blood to bail France out for their lack of awareness before World War II. They are now making the same mistakes all over again and we do not want to have to make the same sacrifice again, especially when the previous sacrifice has such little appreciation.
Xavier:
You Americans seem to take everything personally.
JJ:
No more than the French.
Xavier:
Why don't you think about the million Iraqi who died because of UN economic blockade in the last 10 years...
JJ:
Why don't you think about it? If you do, you will realize that the only solution to this problem is the complete liberation of Iraq.
Let us cover what seems to be the most justified criticism against the United States. It goes something like this.
Because the United States is imposing sanctions on Iraq, needed food and medicine are not arriving there and as many as 4500 children are dying every month because of it as well as great suffering for the adults.
All we need to do is remove the threat of war and sanctions and let the Iraqis have some food and medicine and everything will be OK.
But will it?
As I did some surfing on the internet I found almost universal condemnation of the United States on this issue. Everyone gives the same data, uses the same catch phrases and has the same state of indignation.
Does this make them right?
This chorus was so universal it almost got me singing with it, but then again I have to follow my own philosophy and look at what the vast majority are proclaiming and look for truth in the opposite direction.
Again, I found that the truth is not so obvious as many would have us believe.
After doing some research here is what I discovered.
First, the sanctions imposed are not United States sanctions, but U.N. sanctions imposed by all the nations of the world against Iraq after the Gulf War. The strongest tolerance for Iraq comes from France, Germany, Russia and China who seek to sell arms to Iraq and have contracts with Saddam to obtain most of the oil as long as he stays in power with sanctions lifted.
The "all we need do is ease the sanctions and then they can have food and medicine" is an outright deception.
From the beginning through UN Resolution SCR 661, Iraq has been given the freedom to import food, medicine and materials for humanitarian purposes, excluding, of course, war materials.
Contrary to popular belief, Iraq is still a major exporter of oil, the second largest in the world, second only to Saudi Arabia. In the three years they have exported $40 billion in oil revenues under UN guidelines and an additional estimated $6+ billion on the black market.
The problem with the black market oil money is that Saddam Hussein can spend it any way he wants because the UN has no control, over it. This means he can use these funds for weapons of mass destruction, terrorists programs, personal spending, the military or whatever.
He obviously gets a lot of personal money from somewhere as he has constructed or renovated some 48 palaces since the war according to some sources.
Figuring the amount of money going into Iraq along with internal earnings, the GNP per capita is at least $1000 compared with no more than $900 for Syria. Yet there are no complaints in Syria about the people starving to death. Even in Yemen where the GNP per capita is $270, the people are eating much better than they are in Iraq.
Perhaps it is also the beginning of karmic payback that even the Kurds are faring better than the people of Baghdad. The UN sees to it that they receive their share of oil money away from Saddam's control.
If enough money is coming into Iraq to provide plenty of food, medicine and spare parts to take care of the people then what is creating the problem? Why are there so many reports of malnourishment and starvation?
The answer is quite simple, but one which many refuse to accept.
Saddam Hussein, the same man who committed genocide against the innocent Kurds, is now committing genocide against his own people.
For what reason - what is his motive?
The answer is simple. His end goal was to force the UN to completely remove the sanctions. Now his goal is to gain world sympathy and make the United States look like the bad guy. Sanctions is the one obstacle in his way to obtaining the complete freedom to import nuclear materials and rebuild his war machine. He has openly stated that he wants complete removal of sanctions before he gives any cooperation.
To obtain his desire he needs a weapon to force the hand of the UN and unfortunately, that weapon is the suffering of his own people. He wants lots of starving children and then have them paraded all over the news and internet and then blame this problem he has created and maintains on the UN sanctions, especially targeting the United States.
Osama Bin Laden has also mentioned this situation as a source of his false indignation. Neither one of them are concerned about the children. If they were they would do something about feeding them.
There are numerous ways that Saddam has insured that enough of his people will be starving or deprived of medicine to insure a strong sympathy factor throughout the world.
1) He spends all the black market money and any other funds he can get his hands obtain on his own indulgences, his close associates and the military.
(2) When he committed genocide against the Kurds he also destroyed close to half the good farm ground of the country through turning them into mine fields, through fire and chemicals.
(3) The UN has caught him warehousing badly needed medicine and then exporting them to other countries for cash. It is suspected that he impounds much food that never reaches the people.
(4) He regularly confiscates produce from the farms that do exist. This discourages the Iraqi farmers from raising more than the bare essentials.
(5) There is little free market and businessmen are often executed for not obeying silly rules or raising their prices. The government controls all major industries.
The world is thus faced with a difficult problem in dealing with this thug. We have thousands of people in Iraq dying from lack of food and medicine each month, yet the cause of this lack is not a lack of food and medicine, but the leader of the country sabotaging his own people in the hope the sanctions against him will be lifted and war delayed so he can take revenge out upon those who imposed the sanctions to begin with.
We thus can see that a blanket condemnation of the United States, Britain or any other UN nations supporting the status quo in limiting Iraqi oil sales may be misplaced.
Xavier:
And the probable hundreds of thousands who would die from your so-called war for peace or freedom or whatever ignoble naming of what is on U.S. schedule for Iraq this month.
JJ:
Would you rather have another million people die of starvation?
Or would you rather have 40 million people continue to live in a tyranny which is worse than death?
Not all people are willing to sell out their freedom just to avoid a small physical risk.
Almost every Iraqi who is free of Saddam's influence, that I have seen interviewed, is hoping with all their hearts that the United States will liberate Iraq by any means necessary.
Xavier:
What this crisis has revealed to me is that Americans don't know about war ON THEIR LAND, therefore they got crazed after 9/11 WTC. We Europeans, if we have a right to say our difference, have seen many wars on our land, and are old fighters so to speak, we don't get running around like headless chicken shouting WAR WAR (on the first target that the string pullers decide) after a bombing or anything for that matter.
JJ:
Few of current generation of Europeans have known war on their own land or other lands. It is Americans who have known more war through Vietnam, the Gulf and now the terrorist threat.
It would be interesting to see if the French could practice what they preach if terrorists obliterated the Eiffel Tower and the Louvre so they no longer existed.
Xavier:
If you won't think about Iraqis, then think of your own troops who were poisoned and irradiated ruthlessly by their own commandment during the gulf war.
JJ:
You make it sound like our own leaders purposefully gassed and radiated our own soldiers. This is totally outrageous. As much as France currently irritates the people of the United States we wouldn't dream of making such a knee jerk accusation toward your military or think that your people could stoop so low.
What kind of food are you feeding your mind to come up with such a thought?
It is true that some of our troops suffered by radiation and poison, but this was not by design but by accident. A large part of the problem was that some of our bombs hit Saddam's poison gas supplies and exposed troops to their effects.
Xavier:
If you think that some motives deserve this, then OK examine the motives please. Saddam Hussein has been SUPPORTED LARGELY by the US, and not only after the gulf war, but also DURING IT and afterwards.
JJ:
In one breath you complain that we do not support him enough and his people are starving. Now you are complaining that we support him too much.
We do support him by buying oil for food through the United Nations plan, but this is for humanitarian reasons.
We did support Saddam over Iran because Iran was giving us more problems than Saddam. This was a similar situation to The United States, France and England supporting the killer Stalin to win a victory over Hitler. Sometimes your choice of who to support is between two bad guys rather than a good and a bad guy.
At least the United States government has been wise enough in the present to withdraw all but humanitarian support from Iraq. France and Germany is even at this late day still supplying Saddam with weapons and spare parts for fighter jets.
Xavier:
The gulf war ended precisely because Bush Senior decided to stop the offensive in order to save Saddam's head and regime.
JJ:
This was not Bush's decision. He was following the U.N. mandate. All the U.N. gave him power to do was to expel Iraq from Kuwait.
This was a terrible decision and I was against it at the time.
It's funny though. The greatest criticism of the first Bush was that he followed the instructions from the U.N.
The greatest criticism of the second Bush is that he may not follow them.
It looks like our leaders are damned if they do and damned if they don't in your eyes. Let us put aside the hypocrisy.
Xavier:
I know you don't get much information in your black-outed country nowadays, but you have internet and you are spirited people so you should get a clue, frankly ! I'm quite surprised ! (see P.S. about sources)
JJ:
Us blacked out?
Have you tried to find anything in France in the newspapers or on television that doesn't support the mainstream point of view? From my studies, all your papers are like the New York Times with no Washington Post to give another view. All your TV is like CBS in bias with no Fox news to balance things off.
Almost all the mainstream voices are like Larry King with no Rush Limbaugh for another view. Americans visiting France and parts of Europe are often amazed at the blackout of information there - especially any positive news about the United States.
There are attempts to filter news here, but the truth is always available to those who wish to find it and I believe we have a larger variety of views presented here than any other country.
Xavier:
BTW I am NOT supporting current French policy, as I reckon it is motivated by self-interest, as is US policy. But I can't and won't support a war waged for ruthless motives that is a plan on killing just a few more hundreds of thousands of people for strategic motives (economic, geopolitic and selfish whatever), and call it peace or good or prevention or whatever other IGNOBLE LIE.
JJ:
The war could be a good or a bad thing, but the motive is to bring greater peace and security to the United States and the world with the liberation of a people who are suffering a fate worse than death. Why do you assume the worst in our country - especially with no reason? You seem to hate the people to whom you owe the debt of freedom.
Xavier:
That Bush advocates "war on terrorism", "axis of evil", and so many "beautiful" motives (which you could dream of hearing in any totalitarian and infantilized regressed country) is only one more sign of something creepy that is happening today, not only to the US, but to the world -- world government, fascist global state that is unfolding rapidly before our eyes.
JJ:
You're frightened of Bush because he called a spade a spade. Makes no sense to me.
Xavier:
((Don't be a part of it, don't work for it, don't help let it happen ! Cause it would be the doom of human race once we are all microchipped.))
JJ:
I see. You are waiting for the Beast to put a microchip in your brain and control you. Sounds like you are already being controlled by a distorted thoughtform
Xavier:
(((and watch out for the UN that will be as always presented as the solution to wars, this time using the USA in the role of the bad guy the world needs protection from...UN IS the beast, the world gov and fourth reich, every major war of this century (and before) has been planned in order to create world gov)))
JJ:
I agree. We must watch the U.N. and not give it too much power. Many in the U.N. want to make Bill Clinton the next Secretary General. That is a scary thought, especially if Hillary was President at the same time.
Xavier:
I don't care about USA, nor France, nor Europe, I care about the world and I don't want it to become a global prison, more than it is already. The USA ceased to be the home of the free and the land of the brave around 1870 (*), try to tell a police officer out of YOUR OWN LAND (house land) as cowboys used to have the right to do if you don't agree with me.
JJ:
I'm not sure what you are saying here. We have lost some freedoms and gained some.
Xavier:
I agree that we Europeans NEVER had that right to self freedom (owning your land, being free to live your life as you choose, free from power hungry dictators), but you should see that you Americans ceased to have it a LONG while ago.
JJ:
It's probably not as bad as you think. Outside of high taxes and traffic tickets, I have few complaints.
Xavier:
P.S. About what I said about the gulf war and Bush saving Saddam : I saw Schwartzkopf himself (gulf war commander in chief) the other day on french tv (a BBC documentary that can't get aired in your "free" country, much of BBC is censored in your land, do you know that? check Greg Pallast about it), saying he (and they) didn't understand when prez Bush told them to stop the offensive. I heard that wide rebellion was gonna take Saddam down in his own country, and that stopping the war saved him in the nick of time. I heard that allowing him to have certain helicopters helped him to kill the rebels. So many things can be heard (and if you want confirmation, do the homework).
JJ:
I have heard Schwartzkopf express disappointment in the decision to not take out Saddam a number of times. His view has been expressed in the open here many times.
I do not believe he said that we allowed him to retain helicopters to kill the rebels, especially when it was us and the British who save them. If you can prove this I would be interested in hearing it. We allowed him to retain enough weapons to defend himself against Iran if necessary, but reading any other motive into this is pure speculation.
Xavier:
Another thing this crisis taught me about Americans, in fact it was 9/11 that did it : you are incredibly gullible about your country being supposedly a land of GOOD, you think you do GOOD to the world and all that stupid nonsense. NO, WAKE UP AMERICANS, you are as a nation as ruthless, bloodthirsty as any other, only there is a problem : being a hyperpower nowadays, your caused damage is higher than anyone's.
JJ:
America is not perfect and there are a lot of Americans who like to tell the world how bad we are, but you have nothing good to say about us. Is your mind only absorbing a one-sided view to the extent that you see only the bad, the ugly and the hateful? This is no way for you to live.
Xavier:
Grow up, get out of disneyland in matter of foreign policy, and listen to yer old european friends when they say truth and useful things, learned from experience that you don't have.
JJ:
Happy to do this if you have some real truth for us. Hate is not truth.
What's so bad about Disneyland?
NOTE:
WE have been receiving numerous posts like this that we have rejected over and over. This one slipped through somehow and it has forced me to take time away from the book in an attempt to present the opposing point of view.
One reason we have been rejecting this type of attack speech is that it inflames many and takes us off topic. We could spend three months on this subject.
If you wish to comment on this post please do not copy a book or large article and post it. Please use your own words. Even at that we may limit the posts because we want to concentrate on metaphysical principles for the time being.
Copyright 2003 by J.J. Dewey, All Rights Reserved