Just Cause

2002-3-28 04:39:00

Well, John Z, I asked for your definition of justice and you gave me a few comments, but no definition. How about if we use number one from the dictionary

"The quality of being just; fairness."

I think this pretty much says it. If a person, circumstance or payment is just - this means that fairness has been achieved and all parties have nothing to complain about.

Now let us look at the standard religious view of the world. Is there justice or fairness?

Not hardly. In fact the common phrase being thrown about these days by laymen and preachers alike is "life is not fair."

The truth is that if life is not fair then life is not just and this would mean that God is not just.

In fact, if there is only one life it would indeed be true that life is not fair.

It would not be fair or just to have some little innocent children starving to death and others well taken care of by loving families.

It would not be just for some to be stricken with incurable diseases and others who do not take particularly good care of their bodies to have good health into old age.

It would not be just for some to be born poor and others rich.

It would not be just for some to be born free and others slaves.

Taking these things into consideration it becomes a stretch of obscene proportions to believe that that there is more justice, or fairness, in one life than there would be in hundreds of lifetimes where all experience abundance and poverty, health and disease, love and hate etc.

Actually the epitome of justice and fairness is expressed in the biblical words expressing the law of karma: "as ye sow so shall ye reap."

This is the law of cause and effect with measures out justice with exactness.

John writes: I do not see any validity to the notion that someone, sometime, MUST kill that husband to "fulfill the demands of karma and justice."

JJ
You should argue with what I do say, not with what I do not say."

I did not say that she had to kill her husband for we always have out free agency. But when he killed her in a previous life he set up a cause that would produce effects for lifetimes to come. Justice and fairness demand that he reap as he has sowed. If the payment does not come from his wife it will come from some other source, perhaps even service on his part.

John writes:

If making one whole is NOT a part of "justice" than what is? If someone destroys my reputation, making me "whole" is defined as bringing one back to the state and condition prior to the damaging event. While the idea of me forgiving him is certainly desirable (and essential, if I want the association of the Spirit of God with me), it does NOT bring me back to the condition I had. It does not restore my former reputation. So again I ask: has "justice" been done? What does it take to bring about "justice", and why? And, are there some instances when "justice" is impossible to accomplish? I know I am repeating myself, but "justice" is a core concept, that needs discussing. Not only does it need discussing, but in doing so, plain words need to be used, so that understanding occurs.

JJ
At least half the time when a wrong is committed against a person, such as destroying a reputation, it is an unknowing act of justice because this person in a previous life did a similar harm to someone else. When this happens justice is served. He, of course, will be born with a fresh opportunity to establish a good reputation in his next life, but in having his reputation tarnished in one life as he did unto another in a previous one sets up a classroom where he learns a valuable and "just" lesson. When he who was destroyed by him in a previous life views this lesson from the Spirit world he will feel that justice was served.

There are times when a wrong is committed toward an individual that was not deserved by anything he did in his past. When this happens the person will in some future time have a similar right or good event happen to him which will compensate, thus serving the demands of justice.

John
If Tom owed me a great debt that he could not pay, and I honestly and sincerely forgave him, there would no longer be any debt. Could the same concept apply to other wrong doings? If Tom destroyed my reputation, yet I totally forgave him, might we say that (to me) there was no more need of "justice"? If so, where does that leave Tom? The answer to THAT question is one place where karma gets hung up.

JJ
You keep saying that Karma gets "hung up" when there is no hang up and no problem.

Karma is simply cause and effect and cause and effect never gets frustrated, broken or hung up.

Jesus said: "forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors." Again this is a good Biblical interpretation of Karma.

If you forgive Tom you are making good karma for yourself so you will meet people like you in your future who will forgive your wrongs.

Does forgiving someone his debt erase karma? No. It only alters the way that the karma is worked out.

Many who forgive debts sense this and will say something like, "Don't worry about paying me back. Just help someone else down the road and we'll call it even."

Many of us have had people say this to us when we have been helped by a stranger when we have had car trouble.

If Tom owes you $1000 and you forgive the debt all the effects of borrowing the $1000 are still in play. Your forgiveness has merely added a new cause that changes the circumstances.

Tom will eventually learn the principle of forgiveness and will pay the $1000 back by forgiving a similar debt from someone else in the future.

John
Without laws in the universe, there is disorder and chaos, which diminishes joy and happiness. But with laws, there must be related punishments or else the laws are meaningless.

JJ
It sounds like you are restating the law of Karma here. All eternal laws are built on the principle of cause and effect or karma.

Now let us look at your attempt to meet my challenge which was:

One cannot have the effect of learning unless there is a cause that stimulates the learning. You cannot cite an exception to this.

John gives three examples:

A simple example: #1) If (as young boy) I am fascinated by the orange burner on a stove and reach out to touch it (what you call "cause") I will suffer a burn (what you call "effect"). Most likely I will learn from that cause/effect experience NOT to do that again.

JJ Comment
So far so good. This is a good example of my premise.

#2) If (as a young boy) I am fascinated by the orange burner on a stove, but have the opportunity to watch someone else (who is also fascinated by it) reach out to touch it and get burned, I will NOT suffer a burn, they will. I'm pretty sure that I would learn from his experience and not need to engage in the "cause/effect" myself. How would I have learned in this instance? NOT from my own cause and effect.

JJ Comment
Again your example agrees with my premise. You watched someone else touch the stove and this was the cause which produced the effect of your learning.

#3) If (as a young boy) I am fascinated by the orange burner on a stove, but happen to read a safety booklet with lots of pictures that show what happens when someone reaches out to touch it, there is a good chance that I will remember that, thus learning from it, and not need to engage in the "cause/effect" myself. How did I learn in this instance? NOT from my own cause and effect. In fact, NOT from anyone's cause and effect.

JJ Comment
It was from your own cause and effect. You picked up a booklet (cause) and read and looked at pictures (more cause) and decided to not touch a hot stove (effect).

There is no learning or any other effect without cause. There is no exception to this.

On the lighter side, I can clearly remember my lesson in learning about hot stoves. I was just a couple years old when my mother and brother clearly told me to not touch the stove when it was hot. One day I was looking at the red hot stove thinking about what was said and noticed that it was losing its redness and getting cool. I assumed that when it was no longer red that I could now touch it and did so. To my surprise I learned that a burner can be pretty hot even when it is not red. My lesson in this department was fully registered.