John's Questions

2001-12-7 05:27:00

It looks like it's time to catch up on some questions. John Z has plenty again (I say that in a good way).

I am just about done posting Eternal Lives, so bear with us as I answer Mormon-related questions that may come up. I realize that probably only 20% of the list is of LDS background, but even so I know there are some universal principles to be gleaned by all.

John Z in referring to John the Beloved:
"That revelation says that John was given "power over death" [at least until Christ "comes in his glory"]. Now, to me, that sounds a lot more like being "translated", than it does being able to be reincarnated."

JJ:
The third alternative is presented in my book - The Immortal. If you have not read it yet you can read Book I at www.freeread.com.

I wrote Eternal Lives in 1978 and the way the scriptures are worded definitely point to some type of multiple lives by John whether by reincarnation or some thing else.

John Z:
I do not see where the Mal 4:5-6 is fulfilled by John the Baptist. The timing of this event is tied to the "great and dreadful day of the Lord", which refers to the 2nd coming of Christ, not the first coming. To me, Mal. 4:5-6 and Mal 3:1 are speaking of different events, and different messengers.

JJ:
This is a pretty cut-and-dried issue which was presented starkly in black and white by Jesus, but let me cover it again.

Mal. 4:5-6 and Mal 3:1 are both referring to the same individual which was to be fulfilled by John the Baptist (Elijah in a past life).

In speaking of Mal 3:1 Jesus spoke of John the Baptist saying: "But what went ye. out for to see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet. FOR THIS IS HE OF WHOM IT IS WRITTEN, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee..." Matt 11:9-10.

Thus there is no argument that John the Baptist is the one spoken of to fulfill this prophesy.

Now concerning Mal. 4:5-6 the apostles asked Jesus: "His disciples asked him saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias (Elijah) must first come? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come and restore all things. (This refers to a future coming) But I say unto you, that Elias is COME ALREADY, AND THEY KNEW HIM NOT, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist." Matt 17:10-13.

Keep in mind that Elias is Greek for Elijah and all modern Bibles translate it as Elijah to avoid confusion.

Here both Jesus and the Apostles identified the one who would precede the coming of the Messiah in Malachi as Elijah and "the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist" when talking about its fulfillment.

But note that there would be two appearances. One as Elijah reincarnated through John the Baptist 2000 years ago and another coming of restoration. Since the messenger in Mal 3:1 is positively identified as Elijah come again then the person named as Elijah in Mal 4:5-6 has to be one and the same person.

Even the Mormon Church (and most Bible scholars) teaches that the person in both these scriptures is the same person.

John Z:
"Also, the turning of the hearts of the fathers [and etc.] did NOT occur until Elijah [not John the Baptist] restored those keys in the Kirtland temple."

JJ:
The hearts of the children seeking after their fathers is just one of the meanings of this verse. Let me quote it:

"Behold, I will send you Elijah the Prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord; and he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse." Malachi 4:5-6.

Joseph gave a different twist on this than is usually taught in the church: "This is the spirit of Elijah, that we redeem our dead, and connect ourselves with our fathers which are in heaven... We cannot be perfect without our fathers. WE MUST HAVE REVELATION FROM THEM." Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith Page 338.

This linking up with the dead is to have the effect of giving us revelation. Indeed many of those who have passed on will at times play the role of a guardian angel and speak to us in still moments.

As you mentioned the angel Moroni quoted this verse differently to Joseph Smith:

"Behold, I will reveal unto you the Priesthood, by the hand of Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. And he shall plant in the hearts of the children THE PROMISES MADE TO THE FATHERS, and the hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers. If it were not so THE WHOLE EARTH WOULD BE UTTERLY WASTED AT HIS COMING." D&C 2:1-3.

And what are the promises made to the Fathers (the prophets)? There are many. In speaking of this verse Joseph Smith said: "Whatever is glorious, whatever is desirable, whatever pertains to salvation, either temporal or spiritual, our hopes, our expectations, our glory, and our reward, ALL DEPEND ON OUR BUILDING UP ZION according to the testimony of the prophets, for unless Zion is built our hopes perish, our expectations fail, our prospects are blasted, our salvation withers, and GOD WILL COME AND SMITE THE WHOLE EARTH WITH A CURSE. DHC 2:516.

The most consistent promise made to the fathers was the building of Zion and the gathering of Israel (lights).

Note that an often overlooked part of the verse is that the heart of the Fathers will turn to the children? What does this mean?

We are the fathers of the children of the future and if we do not turn our hearts to them and prepare for them a world free from nuclear weapons, pollution, war and starvation, then indeed the earth will be smitten with a curse.

"Curse" here comes from the Hebrew CHEREM which implies "utter destruction" or "extermination," and this is a real possibility if we do not do our part in leaving our children to come an earth in which they can live in peace and abundance.

Elijah, either as a reincarnated messenger or one working from the higher realms, is predicted to help with our deliverance.

John Z:
First he quotes me as follows: : Another prophecy which leads to the positive identification of John the Baptist as Elijah was given directly by Moroni: "Behold, I will reveal unto you the Priesthood, by the hand of Elijah THE PROPHET, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. D&C 2:1.

JJ:
Here we see that the priesthood would be revealed, not by someone occupying the position of Elijah, as Joseph Smith did, but by Elijah the prophet himself. Moroni wanted to make this clear so he specified "Elijah, the prophet". But who did reveal the priesthood. Amazingly the first one to reveal the priesthood was none other than John the Baptist himself as related in D&C 14!

If one accepts the scriptures the way they are written, then, there is no possible way to deny that John the Baptist and Elijah the Prophet are one and the same.

John Z:
It IS interesting that John the Baptist was the first one to confer some level of priesthood to Joseph Smith, and I see what you are driving at, but it is also true that the priesthood John conferred was only the Aaronic or preparatory priesthood. Hardly a headline grabber. Let's take a closer look at the passage of scripture you quoted. Here is Joseph's rendition of what Moroni told him:

"38 And again, he quoted the fifth verse [of Malachi Ch.4] thus: Behold, I WILL REVEAL UNTO YOU (Joseph) THE PRIESTHOOD, BY THE HAND OF ELIJAH THE PROPHET, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. 39 He also quoted the next verse differently: AND HE SHALL PLANT IN THE HEARTS OF THE CHILDREN THE PROMISES MADE TO THE FATHERS, and the hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers. If it were not so, the whole earth would be utterly wasted at his coming."

So, what have we here? We have Moroni quoting Malachi. And, if you read Malachi 4, the passage is speaking to us, the reader. We are being told that prior to the 2nd Coming, priesthood will be restored. What priesthood? Apparently priesthood that related to turning (sealing) the children to the fathers. Did that happen? Yes it did. Who restored that priesthood? John the Baptist? NO!! Elijah restored that priesthood in 1836. I think it's safe to say that if it were really John the Baptist that showed up in the Kirtland temple, Joseph would have said as much.

JJ:
You are reading a lot into this that is not there. There is no mention of Elijah giving out any priesthood in the Kirkland Temple, but only keys and keys come by knowledge. Moroni said that Elijah would "reveal" the Priesthood to him (Joseph). He did not say Aaronic or Melchizedek, but just used the word priesthood. Now before this revelation was given to Joseph he did not understand what the priesthood was and needed to have it revealed. The person who revealed it to him was prophesied to be Elijah, yet the one who appeared and taught him about it (revealed it) called himself John the Baptist.

Now once the principle of Priesthood was revealed by John to Joseph it could not be revealed to him again because once something is known then it can't be revealed again. If someone reveals to me that the earth is round then this cannot be revealed to me again because I now know and understand this concept. Telling me again reveals nothing.

The priesthood could be revealed once to Joseph and this was done by John who was once Elijah which definitely proves reincarnation.

John Z quoting JJ:
"There is no precedent. Never in history has God sent a resurrected being to accomplish what can be done by mortal men."

John Z:
There have been several men sent in this last dispensation, that lived in the past. John the Baptist, Peter, James, John, Moses, Elijah, to name a few.

JJ:
Other worldly messengers have only appeared briefly, often to one person and have never done the work of mortals rubbing shoulders with the general populace. If Joseph Smith or any other past being were to return and work with humanity it would be as one of us, not as some resurrected glorified being.

You ask about translated beings. These are persons who have achieved the ability to rejuvenate their bodies, but can choose to enter regular mortality where this knowledge is forgotten when the need for service is registered.

John Z:
If Moses was a translated being, then isn't it true that by definition, he was NOT reincarnated -- (thus could not have been David or Joseph Smith)?

JJ:
Not at all. Many translated beings return to mortality. "Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death." D&C 76:59.

I'll tell you something interesting about Moses that is a little too fantastic to include in the book.

Moses was two people in one body just as were Jesus and the Christ. The lower entity was a disciple and the higher was a Master of great power. The lower entity has reincarnated numerous times, but the higher one is usually involved as Moses in visions received such as by Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration or by Joseph Smith. Thus Joseph could have been in the body of Moses in a past life yet seen in vision the Master who was with him as Moses in the same body.

John Z:
"If murder is an "unforgiveable sin", and Joseph Smith (as David) was guilty of such, how is it that he ends up as the head of the dispensation of fulness of times?"

JJ:
The scriptures say that murder is not forgiven "in this world." Fortunately there are next worlds. In the New Testament "world" comes from AEON which means "an age." If a person commits murder he will not be forgiven while he lives, but must give his life to pay the dept which brings forgiveness in a future life, world or age. Interestingly, Joseph Smith was murdered which undoubtedly paid a debt for something he did in the past.

Some of the greatest leaders and teachers of humanity have had some of the greatest debts to pay off.