Infinite Sufferings?

2001-11-20 16:53:00

John,

I am glad we are reaching some points of agreement, but some additional clarification is yet necessary.

You say:
JJ, your comments re. DC 19 were interesting, but I must beg to differ with some of the things you said.

1. JJ said: "This revelation was given to Joseph Smith and it had meaning to him at that time quite beyond what readers who came afterward gleaned from it." You then went on to speak of the molecular relationship between Joseph and his Master.

Actually, the revelation was given to Martin Harris (through Joseph Smith), as indicated not only by the heading, but also verses 26, 35, etc.

JJ
The idea that this was a revelation to Martin Harris alone is erroneous and the introduction you note was (I believe) placed there by Brigham Young or Willard Richards after the death of Joseph. This is evidenced by these words from the Church History: "No words of the Prophet introduce this revelation in his History. Nothing is known of the circumstances which called it forth. And yet there are few revelations that have been given in the present dispensation of the Gospel more important than this one." DHC 1:72

There were several specifics that was definitely intended for the ears of Martin Harris, such as selling his property to supply money for the printing of the Book of Mormon, but to whom are actual teachings directed?

This is identified in verses 8-9 "Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles. I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest." Notice that this precedes the verses that are under discussion on atonement, repentance and punishment. And who do they apply to? Is it just Martin Harris?

No. It is "you that are chosen in this thing..."

"This thing" is identified as the apostleship and would include the Twelve and the first presidency (who are identified as apostles). The interpretation could be expanded by the fact that an apostle, in the end, is a witness for Christ and could include all disciples.

John
2. JJ said: "The revelation told Joseph that he only had a small taste of what could happen if he did not keep his attention focused on the Spirit."

I think I understand what you said about the molecular relationship between Joseph and his Master, and agree with what you said about it, however this section in general (and this verse as well) is directed at Martin, not Joseph.

JJ
As indicated by the scripture itself these verses were intended for all those who heard the revelation. I stand by my statement that it had special meaning to Joseph Smith. We have no record of Martin Harris being plagued by the withdrawal of the Spirit, but there is a definite one concerning Joseph Smith after the loss of the plates.

For a period of time he lost his gift of revelation and was so tortured by it that it completely overshadowed the death of his twin girls.

Thus when the revelation mentioned "the time I withdrew my spirit," it struck home to Joseph, even more than Martin Harris or others present. Even so the meat of the message was meant for all past and present.

You are avoiding the black and white fact here that it was written that "if they would not repent they must suffer even as I."

You claim the Lord suffered an infinite amount, beyond that which is possible for any of us mere mortals.

BUT

We are told here that not only Joseph or Martin but all who are "chosen" to the apostleship will suffer just as Christ did if they betray the light.

Question: How can the sufferings and atonement be as orthodox teachings represent when many may suffer even as Christ???

The answer is simple: Just as we are capable of sharing the Sonship of God with Jesus even so are we are also capable of enduring the same sufferings He had - meaning that the infinite sufferings and atonement has a different meaning than most assume.