Conversations with Zor

2001-4-5 00:15:00

I want to welcome the new members who are coming on board. Glad to see some of you posting and thought provoking posting it is.

I want to thank Larry for covering and commenting on your questions. He has done such a good job that often no comment from me is necessary.

I will write tonight on a point that Quentin has said. He has raised several points that could lead to almost endless discussion in areas close to impossible to prove but I will comment on one important point.

Concerning the teaching that there is no such thing as a beginning but no end he says:

The particular premise suggested here, that it is a mathematical impossibility for a line to have a beginning and no end, is incorrect. Numerous math textbooks, physics textbooks and engineering textbooks make use of this very mathematical reality quite frequently. Many textbook problems (and theory examples) are posed in which one considers a rod (for instance) with an end fixed at a certain point and the other "end" infinitely far away. That general idea being: Consider one end of an infinitely long object because it is solvable mathematically. This is actually what makes the problem easier to solve in many cases. Also, in set theory, one can know exactly the elements of the beginning of an infinite set of objects.


Because we can mathematically create a line with an infinity symbol at the end does not infinity make. No one can even prove that infinity exists, for such is impossible to demonstrate.

Therefore let us use our reasoning. Could a rod exist with a beginning point, but with an end (or no end) an infinite distance away?

Let us suppose we were to find Zor, gatekeeper of such a rod. Zor stands at the beginning of the rod and claims it stretches into infinity.

JJ: Fine rod you have there Zor. I understand that you claim that it stretches into infinity.

Zor: Yes indeed.

JJ: How do you know this?

Zor: No one has been able to find the end of it.

JJ: So are you saying that because no one has found the end of it that there is no end?

Zor: I would say so.

JJ: Did this rod have a beginning to its existence?

Zor: It has been here since the beginning of time.

JJ: So the rod began at the instant of the Big Bang then?

Zor: I suppose

JJ: Since the universe had a beginning in its expansion then this rod also had a beginning. Is that right?

Zor: I suppose.

JJ: And how old do you suppose the universe is?

Zor: About 14 billion years.

JJ: And what is the fastest rate that a physical object can move?

Zor: The speed of light.

JJ: Then according to your own lips the end of the rod can be no further away than 14 billion light years. Can you give me a reason why this conclusion would not be correct?

Zor: Only that the Gods have said so and I believe them.

JJ: Let us reason from another angle then. Do you still believe the rod is extended to infinity?

Zor: Yes.

JJ: Is that infinite point or distance real?

Zor: What do you mean?

JJ: I mean does infinity really exist?

Zor: Yes, of course.

JJ: OK. Let is suppose I can ride along this rod to this mysterious infinite point. Now I stop and look back from an infinite distance away from this beginning point (where we are now) which we also know exists. How far back is it to the beginning?

Zor: I guess you could never return because you would be an infinite distance away.

JJ: Now if am an infinite distance from the beginning point, does that mean that the beginning where we are now ceases to exist?

Zor: I do not know. Maybe.

JJ: Let us suppose Billy Bob is at that infinite distance right now. Does this mean that you, I and the beginning point just evaporate from existence?

Zor: I suppose not.

JJ: Yet if the infinite distance is real and Billy bob is at that point then you and I and this beginning point cannot really be here?

Zor: But we are here.

JJ: So Billy Bob can not really be an infinite distance away can he?

Zor: You're twisting things.

JJ: Not really. Mathematically what distance is one half infinity.

Zor: They say it is infinity.

JJ: So if Gus goes half way the distance to Billy Bob and then looks back and forth both directions can there be an end point either way?

Zor: Mathematically the answer is no.

JJ: So you and I as well as Billy Bob disappear again.

Zor: But we have not disappeared. We are here.

JJ: And the fact that we remain here at a beginning point means that both Billy Bob and Gus are not located at an infinite distance but at an end point. Can you think of a reason why this would not be true?

Zor excuses himself and communes with his gods.

Conclusion: Infinity or infinite distance is an illusion and does not exist. Each form in relation to any other form is a specific and definite distance from each other.

Any division of form has a specific and not an infinite number.

Any multiplication of form also has a specific number.

The word "unlimited" has a basis in reality, but infinity, or infinite only exists in theory in this reality.

On the other hand there are other realities where there is no space and time as we know it and in these realities it is possible that the infinite does exist, but this is beyond our ability to comprehend, until first this reality is mastered.