2006-6-3 16:58:00
Dean,
Some of your direction here is like arguing whether or not God is all powerful in that he can create a rock so heavy he cannot lift it.
If he can create such a rock then he is not all-powerful and if he cannot create it, then he is also not all-powerful. Yet believers maintain that since God is all-powerful that he has a way around this paradox. This way it is some mystery we do not understand.
The truth is that it is a silly question that bears no fruit in asking to begin with.
There are illusionary paradoxes and then there are true paradoxes.
An illusionary paradox is one that contradicts only because we lack understanding, or pieces to the puzzle.
For instance "life is one, yet many" is an illusionary paradox. When the principle is understood there is no paradox at all.
The example of God creating a rock so heavy he cannot lift it is a true paradox based on the assumption that God is all powerful.
A true paradox has no solution except to reveal that the statement itself is based on illusion. The illusion is this. God is not all-powerful as taught by the religions. He is all-powerful through law, but he cannot violate principle or law. The reason for this is that God did not create principles and laws, but principles and laws merely manifest during creation and all life including God has to apply them to produce desired ends.
To say that tomorrow is here yet in our experience tomorrow is not here because I am in today is a nonsensical paradox with no solution except to reveal that the premise is not correct.
Dean:
"Here I read from you it's not finished and yet it is....See this is where I disagree. How do you know you were not always going to type this? By the law of Cause and effect it was always going to be written."
JJ:
The law of Cause and effect says no such thing. I see absolutely no reasoning or common sense behind this.
Dean:
"Let me explain something else.
"Just as this dimension has length, width, height. What would another step up involve? Probably something to do with time and the freedom to move within it as a whole."
JJ:
This cannot be done from the physical reality and from the reality from which it can be done nothing is set. It is like a painter looking at a whole picture with scenery in a constant state of change.
Dean:
"It has already been demonstrated that Consciousness is connected with time. We see past present and future as flowing uncontrollably before us. But what if there is a way our consciousness could control this flow? Like we currently move within the 3 dimensions we already experience."
JJ:
Controlling the flow will not take you into the past or future but only change how you see the present. If we are enjoying something time seems to go faster, but if we are experiencing pain time seems to go slower. Changing the pace of time does not take you into the past or future.
Dean:
"You figure that the future has not happened. And in two ways I see this is incorrect:
"1. Cause and effect reveals that even in the linear perception it is going to happen. And there is no stopping it."
JJ:
This is silly. The fact that something will happen does not mean it has happened. That's like saying pigs will fly someday so they can fly today.
Dean:
"2. If time travel is possible (with our consciousness) Future is no different to the past or the present."
JJ:
Silly again. This means the post I will write tomorrow would have the same words as the post I write today. It's difficult to argue intelligently with you if you do not make sense.
Dean:
"You violate the law of cause and effect by claiming the future is not set."
JJ:
I don't know where you get such an idea or the reasoning behind it.
If the future is set then there is no power of decision for there would be no decisions to be made.
If there are no decisions then there is no life for the power of decision is the principle behind life.
If there is no life then you do not exist and I am not reading your post or writing this, neither is anyone deciding to read in the future.
Dean quoting JJ:
"I am not creating this post out of nothing. There is form, energy and intelligence involved as well as hardware."
Dean:
"My point is that it is already created. Nothing evolved. You think it is being created as you type it. As if it was something new. Your brain tells you it is something new because of the way you are perceiving time. On a soul level you know exactly what has happened as if it was familiar to you. Like you have known it all along."
JJ:
I knew of no such thing on a soul or any other level. Perhaps you can prove your theory by picking some winning lottery numbers or to give us Bush's next speech word for word in advance. I don't think so. No one in history has been able to produce a speech word for word before it is given because it cannot be done. It cannot be done because we are decision and this puts many elements of the future in a state of flux. The only thing that is not in flux are those things which have already been decided.
Dean:
"Because the way you look at evolution you think it means things are being created that are not created already. For example you think when you write a post. That it never existed before you wrote it. that the future did not exist. When it appears. You don't want to call it the future anymore. Yet the only thing that has changed is you idea of what you considered was the future."
JJ:
You are doing an excellent job of making the simple, complex.
The future is called the future because it is not created yet. The present is called the present because it is what we are passing through. The past is called the past because it is gone and behind us.
Again I challenge you. If the future is already created look at it and give me my tomorrows post today, word for word. Even the masters can only predict with about 50% accuracy. Because this cannot be done it basically proves you are not correct.
Dean:
"All you're doing is deciding what future is because of your perception."
JJ:
Perception does not create the future. Decision does.
Dean:
"My point is regardless of your perception about whether it is past present future in your experience of perception. Either way It exists in that point in time. And always has. Nothing can change that. Cause and effect tells us it must be so."
JJ:
Now you are stating an illusionary paradox. To say that my future posts exist before they do exist is to say that black is white and orange is yellow.
In our reality the past, present and future are three different things and nothing in reality contradicts this. To argue that in some other reality things are different is like saying in another reality God can create a rock so heavy he cannot lift it. Such speculation is of no use to us where we are in the present.
Dean:
"Everything is here, always has been here. And always will be here."
JJ:
Then you should be able to reveal to me word for word tomorrow's post.
Dean quoting JJ:
"Existence can only be if there is cause and effect and cause and effect produces evolution."
Dean:
"Cause and effect does not produce it. Evolution is cause and effect. What you are referring to is the same thing. How can cause and effect be different to evolution when the only thing cause and effect can produce is more cause and effect."
JJ:
If I decide and throw a pebble into still water it produces a cause that has an effect. After a short time the water is still again and the effect is producing no more cause and effect. More cause and effect comes from another decision to throw another pebble, not from previous cause and effect.
Decision creates cause and effect, which creates evolution.
Dean:
"I didn't say there is no change I was saying that everything is already in existence and nothing more can come out of it. Because you can't get something from nothing."
JJ:
If you are saying that everything in the future already is then you are saying there is no change. How can there be change if everything has already been decided and carved in stone?
Dean quoting JJ:
"Everything could not exist all at one time because time is produced by change."
Dean:
"Saying everything cannot exist at once is saying that everything that exists is fragmented. Everything must be whole as it exists."
JJ:
It sounds like you are saying there is no differentiation within the whole. Look around your room. Do you only see one whole or do you see differentiation?
Do you see the post I write tomorrow?
I don't think so.
Dean:
"How do you know it's not time that IS change? And how is change and time different?"
JJ:
Change is the cause. Time is the effect. Change and time are as different as cause and effect.
Dean:
"Even if you say change produces time. How can you go outside time, when as you say, you can have no existence without change. That doesn't make sense."
JJ:
Time is created by change, but not all change creates time as we know it. The realities in the higher worlds are so different from our own that it does little good to discuss them. When climbing a ladder you must go one step at a time. We must apply reasoning where we are, not where we are not, if we want to get to the higher steps.
Dean:
"How can anything exist in the first place? It must be your perception. Your consciousness. That is creating your experience."
JJ:
The moon exists whether we perceive it or not. Creation takes place because of consciousness but its existence is not related to outside consciousness.
Intelligent consciousness created your computer but it will remain in existence even though the creator is not perceiving it.
Dean:
"If everything exists as one. All motion is present. It cannot be fragmented ultimately it has to be connected as one thing. but it can be perceived as fragmented."
JJ:
The earth is one whole, but definitely has many parts, or fragments. If you just looked at the whole you could not even exist here, for to exist you must see the many.
Dean:
"When we look at the rock as a whole we see it as it is. Seemingly Created in existence and present."
JJ:
We only see a small part of the rock. There are universes within it.
"Men of genius do not excel in any profession because they labor in it, but they labor in it because they excel."
William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)
Copyright © 2006 by J.J. Dewey, All Rights Reserved